SC - Phrase commas, article?

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by sam2304 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:06 am
Was stuck between C/E.

smoking habit seems awkward, habit of smoking is better. For more info on this, please go through 4th edition MGMAT SC Chapter 11, Too short pattern 1, page 211. We can collapse of-prepositional phrases to noun adjectives unless they aren't awkward, but smoking habit seems awkward to me. May be experts can throw some on this.

E with the one located behind the ear modifies the part of the brain correctly as far as i know and is more clear compared to C.
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by NSNguyen » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:16 am
IMO: E
Please share your idea and your reasoning :D
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by avik.ch » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:07 pm
I am not in much agreement with this explanation for A. Here is my reasoning :
eagleeye wrote:

The driver of the car staying in the mansion was sleeping. This doesn't tell us whether the car was staying in the mansion or the driver. Awkward.
The driver of the car, staying in the mansion, was sleeping. This one tells us that "The driver of the car", not the car itself, was staying in the mansion. Hence we see how the commas are necessary especially when prepositional phrases are used.

Now let's look at this sentence.
The driver of the car, the one staying in the mansion, was sleeping. Do you see a problem with the sentence?
Right. It is very awkward and unnecessarily wordy. Stay away from such constructions.
The driver of the car, the one staying in the mansion, was sleeping - I couldn't find any problem with this sentence. "the one" is referring to "car". Its Perfect - this is one more way to modify "car" without using a relative clause.

Similar to E and OG-12 ( #118) - where a noun refer to the noun before the comma.
The third thing is active vs passive voice usage in a modified phrase.
Look at the following sentences.
She has a drug problem. Vs .
She has the problem of drugs. Which one sounds better? Let's try one more.

He has a smoking problem. He has the problem of smoking. Do you see what's wrong? The second one is unnecessarily wordy.
These examples are not relevant to active and passive.

She has a drug problem -- can never be converted to passive. ( In fact, passive don't exists for this kind of sentence). The main verb should be a transitive verb, inorder to covert into a passive.

This type of conversion is needed ( the problem of drugs) when its ambiguous. Such as "Indian Army" vs "army of India". This is well stated by SAM.
sam2304 wrote: smoking habit seems awkward, habit of smoking is better. For more info on this, please go through 4th edition MGMAT SC Chapter 11, Too short pattern 1, page 211. We can collapse of-prepositional phrases to noun adjectives unless they aren't awkward, but smoking habit seems awkward to me. May be experts can throw some on this.

But here, there are no such reason for this conversion. Even after such a conversion, the correct one would be :

She has a problem of drug.

and not : She has the problem of drug.

In this SC, the conversion is not between "the smoking habit" and "the habit of smoking". There is a change is article here, signifying different meaning.

The meaning issue related to "a" and "the" is well explained here : https://gmatclub.com/forum/in-surprising ... 05575.html



Hope this helps !!

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by heymayank08 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:07 am
IMO: E
but can some GMAT expert please clear the dilema b/w A dn E...

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by karthikpandian19 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:22 pm
Can some GMAT experts clarify this dilemma?
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by Mike@Magoosh » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:48 am
karthikpandian19 wrote:In surprising medical news, scientists investigating long-term effects of stroke are reporting that injury to a specific part of the brain, located behind the ear, can instantly and permanently break a smoking habit.
(A) brain, located behind the ear, can instantly and permanently break a smoking habit
(B) brain located behind the ear can instantly and permanently break a smoking habit
(C) brain, located behind the ear, can instantly and permanently break the habit of smoking
(D) brain located behind the ear, can instantly and permanently break a smoking habit
(E) brain, the one located behind the ear, can instantly and permanently break the habit of smoking
I'm happy to add my 2¢ to this discussion. :)

First of all, this is a picayune pain-in-the-keister SC question, which gets much more meticulous and niggling than the GMAT ever does.

Issues
1) "...that injury to a specific part of the brain, located behind ..." --- comma or no comma?
The modifying phrase "located behind ...." is a non-vital modifier. See these two posts for more detail on that distinction.
a) https://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/that-vs-which-on-the-gmat/
b) https://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/gmat-gramm ... modifiers/
Vital noun modifiers have no comma-breaks separating them from the rest of the sentence. Non-vital noun modifier require the comma. This is a non-vital modifier, so the comma is essential. (B) and (D) are out right away.

2) (E) is pure nonsense.
"... injury to a specific part of the brain, the one located behind the ear, ..."
Half the cerebral cortex, as well as the entirety of the cerebellum and the medulla oblongata, are all "behind the ear." We have thousands upon thousands of discernible "parts" of the brain that are posterior to the ear. The brain is far more complex than, say, a cell phone, and a cell phone (smaller than the entire region of the skull behind the ear) clearly has more than one "part" in order to function. Therefore, the idea that there is only "one part" of the brain behind the ear is patently absurd.
(E) is really kind of a throwaway answer --- they couldn't think of anything stronger, so they simply put something ridiculous for (E). Sometimes that even happens in GMAC questions.

Those two considerations narrow us down to (A) & (C), and the only difference is
(A) ... break a smoking habit
(C) ... break the habit of smoking
No real SC question on the GMAT is going to depend a split this flimsy. This is a poorly written question designed to explore some esoteric point that book was covering. This is NOT the style of GMAC question.

First of all, both "smoking habit" and "habit of smoking" are 100% correct, so there's no distinction there. The distinction appears to be between the indefinite article "a" vs. the definite article "the". Again, I have never never ever seen a GMAT SC question depend only on this distinction between correct and incorrect answer choices.

Frankly, I could see a good argument for either choice --- the indefinite article "a smoking habit" or "a habit of smoking" because we are talking about that person's habit, not another's persons habit; or the definite article "the smoking habit" or "the habit of smoking", because there's only one such habit. From Kasia@MasterGMAT's post above, I infer that what Kaplan had in mind is --- there's only one kind of "smoking habit", not a variety, so the definite article would have to be correct. I assume [spoiler](C)[/spoiler] is the answer that Kaplan valorizes.

I would say: this is not a good GMAT question. Splits between definite/indefinite articles may play out in a GMAT SC question, but only along side other splits, and it's the combination of splits that help you determine a correct answer. This question hinges, ultimately, on just this isolated split, and I would argue, there's not a solid grammatical/logic argument that can definitively justify one choice to the exclusion of the other.

Here's a SC question that better reflects the structure and logic of typical GMAT SC questions:
https://gmat.magoosh.com/questions/1089
When you submit your answer to that, the next page will have a complete video solution.

Does all this make sense? Please let me know if anyone reading this has any questions.

Mike :)
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by vk_vinayak » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:20 am
@Mike, Thanks for the detailed explanation. Though this question per se may not be of GMAC style, I have few questions regarding modifiers mentioned in this question.

C. ...part of the brain, located behind the ear, can instantly ...
E. ...part of the brain, the one located behind the ear, can instantly...

In C, the modifier located behind the ear can refer to brain or part. How do we decide which one it refers to? Is it the meaning that we use to decide, or is there any rule?

And, in this thread I have seen people saying that the modifier in E, the one located behind the ear, definitely better than located behind the ear, and clearly refers to 'part' instead of 'brain'. Is it correct? How so? I felt that located behind the ear is as good as the one located behind the ear and could refer to either part or brain.

Also in the question posted by Dana(URL: https://www.beatthegmat.com/speed-limit- ... 65314.html)

D. The fight over the speed limit, regarded by opponents as ineffective and meddlesome and by supporters as a conserver of life and energy, continues in our legislatures and on our freeways.
E. The fight over the speed limit, a measure regarded by opponents as ineffective and meddlesome and by supporters as a conserver of life and energy, continues in our legislatures and on our freeways.

How in D the modifier regarded by ... energy refers to the entire preceding phrase, while in E a measure regarded... energy refers to only speed limit? Fight could also be a measure.

Please let me know your opinions.
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by Mike@Magoosh » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:05 am
Dear vk_vinayak,

I believe the point you really need to understand is the distinction between a vital vs. non-vital noun modifier. Here are two blog posts where I discuss that distinction in great detail ---
a) https://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/that-vs-which-on-the-gmat/
b) https://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/gmat-gramm ... modifiers/
Those are exactly the same links given in the above post, and your questions concern this important distinction.
vk_vinayak wrote:C. ...part of the brain, located behind the ear, can instantly ...
E. ...part of the brain, the one located behind the ear, can instantly...

In C, the modifier located behind the ear can refer to brain or part. How do we decide which one it refers to? Is it the meaning that we use to decide, or is there any rule?
The prepositional phrase "of the brain" is a vital noun modifier --- without it, we would have absolutely no idea what kind of "part" was being discussed. As a vital noun modifier, it legitimately come between a modifying phrase and the noun it modifies. As a general rule, when you have the structure:
[noun] [vital noun modifier] [another modifier]
then, in the vast majority of cases, that "other" modifier is also modifying the noun. The grammatical construction is suggestive, but you do have to employ logic.

Here, "located behind the ear" modifies "part" because it describes a part of the brain --- some parts of the brain are in front of the ear and some are behind the ear. It can't modify "brain" because we don't have one brain in front of the ear and another brain behind the ear. The grammatical structure provides a strong suggestion, but the logical meaning is the final arbiter.
vk_vinayak wrote:And, in this thread I have seen people saying that the modifier in E, the one located behind the ear, definitely better than located behind the ear, and clearly refers to 'part' instead of 'brain'. Is it correct? How so? I felt that located behind the ear is as good as the one located behind the ear and could refer to either part or brain.
As I thought I made clear in my previous post in this thread, the construction . . .
...part of the brain, the one located behind the ear, ...
is patently absurd and 100% illogical. The brain has millions of well-defined regions --- it is far more complex than, say, a calculator. A calculator has more than one part, and many calculators are smaller than the entire region of the brain behind the ear. Quite obviously there cannot be just a single "part" of the brain behind the ear. To argue for this is to fall into the trap of considering grammar rules in the abstract and blithely ignoring all logical content. People who fall into that mistake have trainwreck after trainwreck on GMAT SC questions.
vk_vinayak wrote:How in D the modifier regarded by ... energy refers to the entire preceding phrase, while in E a measure regarded... energy refers to only speed limit? Fight could also be a measure.
In this context, we are using "measure" in its legal sense --- a legal measure is something that has been enacted as law and has legal ramifications for the behavior of citizens. A speed limit is an example of a measure --- it has been enacted as a law and if a private citizen choose to disregard it, there will be direct legal consequences. An argument, especially an argument about speed limit, is itself not a measure --- the argument itself has in no way been framed into the law; it just evolves spontaneously, between different groups of private citizens. There are ultra-cautious folks who think the speed limit is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and there are libertarians who want to be allowed to drive 90 mph as an fundamental expression of their essential Constitutional freedom, but both of these are just individual citizens with their own opinions and perspectives. No law directly supports the continuation of this argument, and if the argument suddenly stopped and everyone agreed, that in and of itself would not break any law. To say that an argument is a legal measure is to suggest that lawmakers passed a law requiring people to have this argument, which is absurd. That's how we know, without a shadow of a doubt, that "measure" refers to the law, not to the argument.

Does all this make sense? Let me know if you have any further questions.

Mike :)
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by karthikpandian19 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:54 pm
Mike

If i understood correctly from your first part of the post:

[noun] [vital noun modifier] [another modifier]

i understood this correctly, but somehow i got in the last paragraph of your discussion.

D. The fight over the speed limit, regarded by opponents as ineffective and meddlesome and by supporters as a conserver of life and energy, continues in our legislatures and on our freeways.
E. The fight over the speed limit, a measure regarded by opponents as ineffective and meddlesome and by supporters as a conserver of life and energy, continues in our legislatures and on our freeways.

From these two sentences, OA is E:

D. The fight - NOUN, over the speed limit - vital noun modifier, regarded by opp......energy - another modifier
So, the "another modifier" is modifying the NOUN

E. The fight - NOUN, over the speed limit - vital noun modifier, a measure regarded......energy - another modifier
So, the "another modifier" is modifying the NOUN

Not pretty clear ?
Mike@Magoosh wrote:Dear vk_vinayak,

I believe the point you really need to understand is the distinction between a vital vs. non-vital noun modifier. Here are two blog posts where I discuss that distinction in great detail ---
a) https://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/that-vs-which-on-the-gmat/
b) https://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/gmat-gramm ... modifiers/
Those are exactly the same links given in the above post, and your questions concern this important distinction.
vk_vinayak wrote:C. ...part of the brain, located behind the ear, can instantly ...
E. ...part of the brain, the one located behind the ear, can instantly...

In C, the modifier located behind the ear can refer to brain or part. How do we decide which one it refers to? Is it the meaning that we use to decide, or is there any rule?
The prepositional phrase "of the brain" is a vital noun modifier --- without it, we would have absolutely no idea what kind of "part" was being discussed. As a vital noun modifier, it legitimately come between a modifying phrase and the noun it modifies. As a general rule, when you have the structure:
[noun] [vital noun modifier] [another modifier]
then, in the vast majority of cases, that "other" modifier is also modifying the noun. The grammatical construction is suggestive, but you do have to employ logic.

Here, "located behind the ear" modifies "part" because it describes a part of the brain --- some parts of the brain are in front of the ear and some are behind the ear. It can't modify "brain" because we don't have one brain in front of the ear and another brain behind the ear. The grammatical structure provides a strong suggestion, but the logical meaning is the final arbiter.
vk_vinayak wrote:And, in this thread I have seen people saying that the modifier in E, the one located behind the ear, definitely better than located behind the ear, and clearly refers to 'part' instead of 'brain'. Is it correct? How so? I felt that located behind the ear is as good as the one located behind the ear and could refer to either part or brain.
As I thought I made clear in my previous post in this thread, the construction . . .
...part of the brain, the one located behind the ear, ...
is patently absurd and 100% illogical. The brain has millions of well-defined regions --- it is far more complex than, say, a calculator. A calculator has more than one part, and many calculators are smaller than the entire region of the brain behind the ear. Quite obviously there cannot be just a single "part" of the brain behind the ear. To argue for this is to fall into the trap of considering grammar rules in the abstract and blithely ignoring all logical content. People who fall into that mistake have trainwreck after trainwreck on GMAT SC questions.
vk_vinayak wrote:How in D the modifier regarded by ... energy refers to the entire preceding phrase, while in E a measure regarded... energy refers to only speed limit? Fight could also be a measure.
In this context, we are using "measure" in its legal sense --- a legal measure is something that has been enacted as law and has legal ramifications for the behavior of citizens. A speed limit is an example of a measure --- it has been enacted as a law and if a private citizen choose to disregard it, there will be direct legal consequences. An argument, especially an argument about speed limit, is itself not a measure --- the argument itself has in no way been framed into the law; it just evolves spontaneously, between different groups of private citizens. There are ultra-cautious folks who think the speed limit is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and there are libertarians who want to be allowed to drive 90 mph as an fundamental expression of their essential Constitutional freedom, but both of these are just individual citizens with their own opinions and perspectives. No law directly supports the continuation of this argument, and if the argument suddenly stopped and everyone agreed, that in and of itself would not break any law. To say that an argument is a legal measure is to suggest that lawmakers passed a law requiring people to have this argument, which is absurd. That's how we know, without a shadow of a doubt, that "measure" refers to the law, not to the argument.

Does all this make sense? Let me know if you have any further questions.

Mike :)
Regards,
Karthik
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by sandeep_thaparianz » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:01 am
A is better option than c because of concision

We can usually collapse the OF construction in prepositional phrase.
Hence smoking habit is better than habit OF smoking

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by Mike@Magoosh » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:28 am
karthikpandian19 wrote:D. The fight over the speed limit, regarded by opponents as ineffective and meddlesome and by supporters as a conserver of life and energy, continues in our legislatures and on our freeways.
E. The fight over the speed limit, a measure regarded by opponents as ineffective and meddlesome and by supporters as a conserver of life and energy, continues in our legislatures and on our freeways.

From these two sentences, OA is E:

D. The fight - NOUN, over the speed limit - vital noun modifier, regarded by opp......energy - another modifier
So, the "another modifier" is modifying the NOUN

E. The fight - NOUN, over the speed limit - vital noun modifier, a measure regarded......energy - another modifier
So, the "another modifier" is modifying the NOUN
Dear karthikpandian19,

I think we are saying the same thing at this point. I think. :)

D. The fight over the speed limit, regarded by opponents as ineffective and meddlesome and by supporters as a conserver of life and energy, continues in our legislatures and on our freeways.
E. The fight over the speed limit, a measure regarded by opponents as ineffective and meddlesome and by supporters as a conserver of life and energy, continues in our legislatures and on our freeways.


In both "over the speed limit" is a vital noun modifier, so "The fight over the speed limit" functions as a unit. The problem with D is that the whole modifier "regarded by opponents as ineffective and meddlesome and by supporters as a conserver of life and energy" would follow the [NOUN][vital modifier][other modifier] pattern and refer to "fight", which doesn't make sense. The fight has people who disagree with each other, but there aren't people who "support" the fight and "oppose" the fight.

In (E), the word "measure" is an appositive. It is a "restatement" of the idea of "speed limit", and the following modifying phrase modifies "measure", which represents "speed limit." Are you familiar with appositive phrases?

a) My friend, the man fluent in eleven languages, visited me from the East Coast.

b) William Taft's successor, Woodrow Wilson, had a different approach to foreign policy.

c) The pi meson, a subatomic particle, decays into either a muon or an electron.


Those are three sentence with the appositive phrase underlined.

Does all this make sense? Do you have any further questions?

Mike :)
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by vk_vinayak » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:54 pm
@Mike, thanks for the wonderful explanations. It makes things clear for me.

I have a question though:
[noun] [vital noun modifier] [another modifier]
then, in the vast majority of cases, that "other" modifier is also modifying the noun. The grammatical construction is suggestive, but you do have to employ logic.


<Noun> <'Of' modifier>, <another modifier beginning with participle>

I understand that grammatical construction is suggestive. But is there any example (especially in OG) conforming to above structure in which <another modifier> is modifying the <'Of' modifier> ? Something like sound of the river, flowing through the Amazon forests, ....

Thanks.
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by Rav1978 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:53 pm
Hindsight is 20/20.

By process of simple elimination, I would take out choices with "smoking habit" - simply because "smoking" COULD ALSO qualify the word "habit". Colloquially, "smoking habit" makes perfect sense. For example: Consider the phrase "Smoking Gun" - does it mean the gun smokes (actually, it does - after the bullet has exited the chamber) - but "Smoking Gun" means something very different from a "gun that smokes".

Similarly, "the habit of smoking" is proper - rather than "a smoking habit". I'd much rather say, "Mr X has a habit of smoking " rather than "Mr X has a smoking habit". An adjective could qualify habit , For example: "Smoking is a bad habit ". The only way I see "smoking habit" being used in a sentence if, another adjective qualifies the phrase, "Mr X has a severe smoking habit".