610 GMAT 36 V (80th %) 38 Q (53rd)

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610 GMAT 36 V (80th %) 38 Q (53rd)

by ladistar » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:26 am
OK, so I took the test yesterday and got a 610. Keep in mind that I had not taken a single practice test prior (so this was the first time I had taken the CAT) and had only done 3 weeks of really intense prep beforehand. I was really expecting a 650 or so, maybe higher, but things didn't happen quite as expected.


I have a few questions:


1) Is it possible to improve the quant from 53rd percentile up to 80th at least? I just ordered all five Manhattan GMAT prep books for the quant section, and I plan to pick up the OG today or tomorrow at the local bookstore. I was pretty decent at math in high school and college, but I had poor timing issues and got caught up on a few questions, leaving me to rush through the final five and make a couple of guesses. And for several problems, I just flat-out didn't remember or apply concepts I already knew.

2) What can I do to bump up the Verbal from 80th to 90th? I've already taken the LSAT ( my aim is to do a dual JD/MBA program) I barely even prepped for this section, with the exception of buying the MGMAT SC guide , which helped tremendously. Should I just keep studying that guide from time to time and just read a lot on the side in prep for the other areas?

3) In regards to timing issues: I was always told that the first 10 questions are the most important, and that you should spend a little extra time on those to make sure that they are correct. For the quant section, I believe I might have taken that a little too much to heart - I spent at least 3 minutes on each of those questions, leaving me rushed and nervous for the rest of the test.

As for Verbal, I thought it was extremely easy and had about 20 minutes to go with about 15 questions left, so I actually SLOWED DOWN intentionally so I didn't finish up too early. Should I have gone as quickly as possible and finished the section early?

Since the GMAT supposedly takes into account how quickly you answer the problems, I wonder whether the computer took the excessive amount of time that I took into account when calculating my final grade.



Anyways, sorry for the somewhat-lengthy description, but I would be grateful if some GMAT vets could give me some advice on how to score higher and correctly diagnose my timing issues based on this information. My optimal goal is 700+, but I'd be happy with at least 650-680. Thank you all very much in advance for your response(s).

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by VP_Jim » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:20 am
Here are my thoughts...

1. Yes, it's certainly possible. If you didn't prep the first time, there's no reason to think that you can't improve that quant score. In addition to the OG, I recommend you get a prep guide from one of the reputable GMAT prep companies because you'll be well advised to learn some of the tricks/common strategies to apply on math questions (you won't find these in the OG).

2. How did you do on the LSAT? If you did very well, chances are that your GMAT verbal score affected most by the sentence correction. Keep practicing the common grammatical errors - how to spot them in questions, how to correct them, etc. You might also want to do a bunch of CR practice problems since I believe the CR on the GMAT is different than the CR on the LSAT.

3. You probably shouldn't spend three minutes on every question in the beginning. I would say spend UP TO three minutes, but aim for 2:00 to 2:30. There is no bonus for finishing early, so definitely slow down on the verbal section. Taking more time will probably get your score up. As I tell my students: finishing with too much time left is just as bad as running out of time (unless you scored 99th percentile, of course!).

Hope this helps!
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by ladistar » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:43 am
VP_Jim wrote:Here are my thoughts...

1. Yes, it's certainly possible. If you didn't prep the first time, there's no reason to think that you can't improve that quant score. In addition to the OG, I recommend you get a prep guide from one of the reputable GMAT prep companies because you'll be well advised to learn some of the tricks/common strategies to apply on math questions (you won't find these in the OG).

2. How did you do on the LSAT? If you did very well, chances are that your GMAT verbal score affected most by the sentence correction. Keep practicing the common grammatical errors - how to spot them in questions, how to correct them, etc. You might also want to do a bunch of CR practice problems since I believe the CR on the GMAT is different than the CR on the LSAT.

3. You probably shouldn't spend three minutes on every question in the beginning. I would say spend UP TO three minutes, but aim for 2:00 to 2:30. There is no bonus for finishing early, so definitely slow down on the verbal section. Taking more time will probably get your score up. As I tell my students: finishing with too much time left is just as bad as running out of time (unless you scored 99th percentile, of course!).

Hope this helps!
Thanks man.

As I mentioned before, I bought all five MGMAT books on the quantitative section alone. Prior to that, I had prepared using Barron's and Manhattan Review Math Study Guide. I found the latter to be helpful for the most part, but there were some advanced questions on the real thing that I wasn't very comfortable with.

As for the LSAT, I did about average (157), nothing great but nothing completely horrible either. The Logical Reasoning and Reading Comp on the LSAT is much more complex than that of the GMAT, so I'm kind of glad I took that test prior to the GMAT as it gave me a good enough foundation for tackling those sorts of problems on the latter. Personally, I found the GMAT RC to be ridiculously easy in comparison, both in length and density of material.

I already own the MGMAT SC Guide and went through that about twice prior to taking the GMAT. It's been extremely helpful and I felt that I had little no difficulty with any grammar problems on the test. I'll probably go through that once or twice more before the re-take, but otherwise, I think I have a fairly strong grasp of sentence correction stuff.

Just out of curiosity , do we find out exactly what we got right and wrong on our score report? That would help me pin-point my errors a LOT.

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by VP_Jim » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:55 pm
No, the GMAT isn't like the LSAT - or at least the way it used to be. I remember when I took the LSAT, I received a score report telling me exactly which questions I got wrong. The GMAT just gives you a score, and you have no idea how many you got right, what types of questions you struggled with, etc.
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by Stacey Koprince » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:24 am
Received a PM asking me to respond.

Good advice from Jim above, already. Agree with him that there's no reason you can't improve if you put the work on... you just have to put the work in. :)

The first thing I would do if I were you is take a practice CAT. As Jim said, you won't get any data about your strengths and weaknesses from the real test, so you've got to find out some other way. Don't use GMATPrep for this purpose - it doesn't give you any data about your strengths and weaknesses. Because you just bought some of our books, you actually now have access to our CAT exams. As soon as you get the books, create an account on our web site and enter the codes; that will give you access to the tests (as well as some other material). Then, just set aside 4 hours in your schedule and take a test!

Mimic the real test as much as possible, so that your results are as close to the real thing as possible. (So, do the essays, take two 10-min breaks, etc.) Then run the assessment reports and use the data to set up a study plan. Don't forget to pay attention to timing and difficulty level, not just what you got right or wrong. For instance, if you got something wrong but it was a 700+ question, that's not such a problem. If you got something right but took 3.5min to do so, that is a problem.

On the verbal side, you may need something more than just SC, but wait and see how you do on the practice test. It is the case that CR is fairly significantly different on the LSAT. The RC passages tend to be somewhat easier, in my opinion, on the GMAT because they know we're reading on a screen (which is harder when reading than a paper-based test such as the LSAT), but it really depends upon the passages you get. I've seen some science ones on the GMAT that are pretty dense.

Also, the first 10 questions are not any more important than the last 10 questions - that's a myth. It is true that the "swings" in difficulty level can be higher earlier in the test, but there are also significant penalties for running out of time at the end of the test and either leaving questions blank or having a string of wrong answers in a row. It's not a big deal if you run out of time and have to guess on one or two questions, but if you have to rush and/or guess on more than 3 questions, you're most likely losing more points at the end than you gained in the beginning. (Even when just rushing - that increases the chances of making a careless mistake. And when do you feel most pressured to rush besides the end of the test? When you think the question is "easy" so you feel you can save a little time on it. But it's more detrimental to your score to get an easier question wrong than a harder one!)

On verbal, I agree with Jim - just want to emphasize. If you're moving through that quickly, then you are leaving points on the table due to careless mistakes caused by speed. This is your strength! Don't leave any points on the table.

Anyway, because you said you didn't prep much, you're in a pretty good position. You're already pretty close to your goal score. Now it's just a matter of figuring out where you're falling short (use the practice test to gauge that) and doing the work to shore up those weaker areas! Good luck - let us know how it goes.
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Re: 610 GMAT 36 V (80th %) 38 Q (53rd)

by ken3233 » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:10 pm
ladistar wrote: Since the GMAT supposedly takes into account how quickly you answer the problems, I wonder whether the computer took the excessive amount of time that I took into account when calculating my final grade.
This is news to me. Are you saying that the GMAT actually deducts points for taking a long time to finish a question (let's say three minutes), as opposed to finishing them quickly (two minutes or so)? Further, this is true even if the testee gets all the questions correct?

Thus, even though the testee is answering very tough questions correctly, the test algorithm could bump them down to the medium/low scoring track because of excessive time spent on the questions?

If this is true, I am worried. I was intending to take a long time to finish exceptionally tough questions and then compensate by blowing through the easy questions in 30 seconds or so.

Moderators or test veterans: can you please comment?

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by VP_Jim » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:25 pm
See our posts above - no, that is absolutely, 100% untrue. Personally, I always take the entire time and do just fine. :)
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by Stacey Koprince » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:08 pm
Jim's right. Also, it's not a good idea to take "a long time to finish exceptionally tough questions and then compensate by blowing through the easy questions in 30 seconds or so."

First, the questions are designed to be done in 2 min - maybe 2.5 on the outside. Someone knows how to do the question in that amount of time, even if you don't. So if you take 4 or 5 min to do a question, what that's mostly indicating is just that you don't really know how to do that problem. And studies have been done showing that the longer we go over about 2m40sec, the more our odds of getting it wrong increase.

Second, you're not going to get that many 30-sec questions (assuming you're doing as well as you can!). If you're doing well, you're going to feel pressed on almost every question.

Third, if you do something in 30 sec, you vastly increase your chances of making a careless mistake. It is far worse to your score to get an easier question wrong than a harder one. In fact, get enough of those easier ones wrong and you won't even get the harder ones in the first place.

Let's say you're going for a 700. The test gives you a 710 level question and you get it wrong. Will that prevent you from scoring a 700? No. Same deal if it's only a 680 question - as long as you don't get all of the questions in the 650-700 range wrong, it's okay to get a few wrong and still get that 700.

But let's say the test gives you a 600 level question and you get it wrong. One question wrong won't prevent you from scoring a 700, but if you get a few of these wrong because you're trying to do them in 30 sec, that may prevent you from getting up to 700 territory.

Bottom line: balance your time. Work steadily through the test. You will get stuff wrong - you can't avoid that. Just don't spend so much time getting those really hard ones wrong that you also get other ones wrong that you could've gotten right!
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