DS Q #70 (p.158) From Official Guide Quant 2nd Edition

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by rohu27 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:21 pm
Night reader,
this is getting complicated. if we do by wht u say then according to st 1 K has only -2,2. eugh to answer the question Is 12 in K - simple No.
same wth st 2.

K is a set of numbers such that if x is in K, then -x is in K, and if each of x and y is in K, then xy is in K.

I guess we are reading too much into the variable representation above.
the question could very well say, if x is in K then -x is in K. for each of 'a' and 'b' in K, ab will also be in K.
guess this is sme as the original question. a and b can be any values which are in set K. by st 1 a can be 2,-2.

a and b here do not point to only a single value.they inturn represent each values in the set.

Set K in question has got to be an ifinite sequence wth numbers adding up as we go along.
like 2,-2 in set K then -4 would be in set k, 8,-8...so on.

love to get ur thoughts on this. different perspectives on a single question. helps improve ur thought process :D
Night reader wrote:@ankur, this DS has certain conditions. If x is in K then x and -x are in K. We are given one number in statement (1) 2 and one number in statement (2) 3. Either of these numbers are x OR y. We cannot say 2=x=y when we do not know about the existence of the second variable (x OR y). Each condition implies only one number - so one variable x OR y!

now set K according to statement (1) has only x and -x {-2; 2}

according to statement (2) set K has only y or -y {-3; 3}

you cannot say xy in statement 1 and 2, because we have only one value for either x OR y.

if you combine both you get x*y {-6;-3;-2;2;3;6} there's no 12 ans answer No st(1&2) Sufficient

please read the previous posts, it's not the matter of personal like or dislike - just knowledge man :(

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by Night reader » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:34 am
@rohu, please ask experts to reply and comment, as I have included below solution with my best effort for this DS. I must be wrong because Official Guide's explanation allows for existence of 12 in set K and answers Yes by selecting choice C. Please seek an expert's advice :)
K is a set of numbers such that if x is in K, then -x is in K, and if each of x and y is in K, then xy is in K.

Is 12 in K?

(1) 2 is in K
(2) 3 is in K
The question in this problem is very straightforward. K is a set of numbers, please note the set K contains only x and y, BUT x and y are assigned values, otherwise how we know where does 12 come? OK? now we are looking up statement (1) and it says 2 is in K. what is 2? it's either x or y, whichever you like... So let's assign x=2, then how will set K look like? reread the problem "K is a set of numbers such that if x is in K, then -x is in K, and if each of x and y is in K, then xy is in K" Therefore, K should include 2 and -2, that's it! K E {-2;2} we stop here as statement (1) doesn't help us to solve this problem and locate 12, and we look ahead for statement (2). Statement (1) Is Not Sufficient;
Statement (2) 3 is in K --> y=3 OR K E {-3;3} again no trace of 12. Not Sufficient.

Let's combine statements (1&2): we should get x*y for set K here --> {-2;2} U {-3;3} --> how many ways we can arrange our set K? use counting actually 2*2 + 2 (plus two more values from each set, because we have values +/- ve sign) --> {-6; -3; -2; 2; 3; 6} that's it! Sufficient

this is Yes/No question, hence combined statements (1&2) are sufficient to answer NO. It's just C because we can answer No.
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by GMATGuruNY » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:50 am
OneTwoThreeFour wrote:K is a set of numbers such that if x is in K, then -x is in K, and if each of x and y is in K, then xy is in K.

Is 12 in K?

(1) 2 is in K

(2) 3 is in K


I would love to hear your rationale on this question. Personally, I find the solution to be a bit puzzling.
I received a PM asking me to comment.

If x is in K, then -x is in K means that if any value is in K, then -(that value) also is in K.
If x and y are in K, then xy is in K means that if any two values are in K, then their product also is in K.

Since the conditions above apply to any values that are in K, each condition will generate an infinite number of values that are in K, as we will see when we evaluate the two statements.

Statement 1: 2 is in K
Thus, -2 is in K.
Thus, 2 * -2 = -4 is in K.
Thus, -(-4) = 4 is in K.
Thus, 2*4 = 8 is in K.
Thus, -2*4 = -8 is in K.
Thus, 4 * - 4 = -16 is in K.
Thus, -(-16) = 16 is in K.
Thus, K = {...-16, -8, -4, -2, 2, 4, 8, 16...}.
But we don't know what other values might be in K, so 12 might be K or 12 might not be in K.
Insufficient.

Statement 2: 3 is in K
Thus, -3 is in K.
Thus, 3 * -3 = -9 is in K.
Thus, -(-9) = 9 is in K.
Thus, 3*9 = 27 is in K.
Thus, -3*9 = -27 is in K.
Thus, K = {...-27, -9, -3, 3, 9, 27...}.
But we don't know what other values might be in K, so 12 might be K or 12 might not be in K.
Insufficient.

Statements 1 and 2 combined:
Since both 4 and 3 are in K, 4*3 = 12 is in K.
Sufficient.

The correct answer is C.
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by Night reader » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:24 am
from the expert's explanation above it is clear that x was put to generate not only -x but also y in statement (1)
x can be any value AND y can be any value
WOW
can be <, >, = must be
x must be -x
-x can be any value including y

can be does not make must be - must crosses out can be, BUT here's no must except for x=-x in statement (1) <-- please note, this is the only one twig of data to switch answer from YES to No in this DS.

that some thing can be means this can OR cannot be - Sufficient?
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