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Questions from MGMAT SC guide - help needed

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Questions from MGMAT SC guide - help needed

by sp19 » Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:11 am
Parallelism
========
1.)The students did poorly on the test more because they hadn't studied than not understanding the material.

Answer in MGMAT SC guide
==================

The students did poorly on the test more because they hadn't studied than because they didn't understand the material.


My Question - Why the answer cannot be as follows :

[b]The students did poorly on the test more because they hadn't studied than because they hadn't understood the material.[/b]




COMPARISONS
==========

2.)The tycoon contributed more to the candidate's campaign than anyone else in the industry.


Answer in the MGMAT SC Guide
=====================

- The tycoon contributed more to the candidate's campaign than did anyone else in the industry.



My Question - Why the answer cannot be as follows:

[b]The tycoon contributed more to the candidate's campaign than anyone else did in the industry.[/b]


Can anyone please clarify me ?

Many thanks!
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by stop@800 » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:54 am
]The students did poorly on the test more because they hadn't studied than because they hadn't understood the material.

The had is used only when there are two actions of the past. Had is used with action which got completed earlier.


2)
Answer
The tycoon contributed more to the candidate's campaign than did anyone else in the industry.

Your choice
The tycoon contributed more to the candidate's campaign than anyone else did in the industry.

If you read carefully, placement of did is actually changing the meaning.
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by sp19 » Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:10 pm
stop@800.

Can you please clarify further ?

Which two actions are you taking about ? Both the actions "studied" and "understanding" are past actions in the sentence. And "did poorly on the test" is the simple past action. So why shouldn't the previous actions in both the cases have "had" instead of having just in one ????


About second question can you please explain the changed meaning ?

We could have also written it as

"The tycoon contributed more to the candidate's campaign than anyone else contributed".

Then what is wrong in replacing "contributed" with "did" and writing as it as I have mentioned in my previous answer.


Another example in SC says:

Julia was able to climb the tree as fast as her brothers did.

Then why not " Julia was able to climb the tree as fast as did her brothers", if we go by the same logic ????

OR lets say it was not "as fast as" but was "faster than".

Julia was able to climb the tree faster than her brothers did.

OR should it have been

Julia was able to climb the tree faster than did her brothers ???? ( I guess this is wrong).



Can you please explain what am I missing ?

Thanks.
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by mastbombay » Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:08 pm
Hi,

regardin ur first query,

The students did poorly on the test more because they hadn't studied than because they hadn't understood the material.

is wrong........cos............two actions are involved....

1. Its common sense to assume that they had studied for the test .....before the test took place..........hence had is mandatory for this fragment......

2. For second there are two interpretations.............

First.....They did not perform well because they did not understnad the material tested on the test.....i.e.....they could not understand the questions on the test........so simle past is required.......

Second, they could nto understand the study materail.......
now here is the trap......first u study the material and then only u come to know whether u understood it or not.........right.........hence ....again simple past.......


sp19 wrote:stop@800.

Can you please clarify further ?

Which two actions are you taking about ? Both the actions "studied" and "understanding" are past actions in the sentence. And "did poorly on the test" is the simple past action. So why shouldn't the previous actions in both the cases have "had" instead of having just in one ????


About second question can you please explain the changed meaning ?

We could have also written it as

"The tycoon contributed more to the candidate's campaign than anyone else contributed".

Then what is wrong in replacing "contributed" with "did" and writing as it as I have mentioned in my previous answer.


Another example in SC says:

Julia was able to climb the tree as fast as her brothers did.

Then why not " Julia was able to climb the tree as fast as did her brothers", if we go by the same logic ????

OR lets say it was not "as fast as" but was "faster than".

Julia was able to climb the tree faster than her brothers did.

OR should it have been

Julia was able to climb the tree faster than did her brothers ???? ( I guess this is wrong).



Can you please explain what am I missing ?

Thanks.
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by sp19 » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:22 am
mastbombay,
I appreciate your response. However, my concern is still as stated in my previous post.

I understand that "studied" is a past action than "taking the exam", hence, past perfect. But what about the second part.

Isn't "understanding" an action that has happened before "taking exam as well" ?? Why are we comparing the latter two actions i.e. "studied" and understand". In that sequence you are right that is studying comes before understanding. But what about comparing it with "did poorly" ??

My question is, why "studied and understanding" both NOT considered as past perfect when compared to "did poorly". I think both the actions should be considered parallel when using comparisons.

Can you please explain this to me ?

Anyone please please please respond me. I am still looking for an answer.

Thanks.
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by stop@800 » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:49 am
Hello sp19,

My attempt to clarify the things further

First:
I understood your point and I think its valid. I would want the experts to comment on it.

If I split, both are correct
The students did poorly on the test because they hadn't studied.
The students did poorly on the test because they hadn't understand the material.

I am sure there must be some logic but right now I can not recall, I will get back on it.


Second:
"did in the industry." is making it incorrect.

I think, It is correct to say
The tycoon contributed more to the candidate's campaign than anyone else contributed.
or better one
The tycoon contributed more to the candidate's campaign than anyone else did.
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by sp19 » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 pm
stop@800,
I really appreciate your response. However, I would love to see explanations that have grammatical rules to validate them.

I would like experts to comment on. BTW, do you know how to get them to answer me ??

I have asked Stacey in a private message, still to receive her reply.

Thanks.
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by Stacey Koprince » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:02 pm
Hey guys

So, the questions in the strategy guide aren't GMAT-format questions (that is, they aren't multiple choice). The answers, therefore, offer only one possible way to correct the given sentence, but not the only possible way. There are all kinds of ways in which you can write a correct sentence. On the test, they get around this by making it multiple choice and only offering you one correct option out of five.

So it's totally fine if you think of a different way to re-write a sentence correctly than the way that the answer key shows.

sp19 - in your case, the two alternate corrections you offered way up at the top there are fine. :)

On the real test, they tend to use the "than did anyone else" construction rather than the "than anyone else did" construction simply because the first one is not what we'd normally use in everyday language - and some people will think it's wrong because they're not used to "hearing" it that way.
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by lunarpower » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:14 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:On the real test, they tend to use the "than did anyone else" construction rather than the "than anyone else did" construction simply because the first one is not what we'd normally use in everyday language - and some people will think it's wrong because they're not used to "hearing" it that way.
this is certainly the reason that construction gets so much playing time on the test, but it's not the only reason the construction is featured. in fact, "...than did anyone else" is considered better written english than is** "...than anyone else did", in just about all respectable circles of authority re: the english language.
here's why: if the noun (the subject) is followed by a modifier, then the more formal construction still sounds good:
i know more about shakespeare than does my brother, who has never taken a course on british literature in his life.
the less formal, more commonly spoken construction, on the other hand, crashes and burns:
i know more about shakespeare than my brother, who has never taken a course on british literature in his life, does.
without the boldfacing, this sentence is extremely difficult to understand. the standard convention (helping verb before noun) is what it is precisely to avoid situations such as this one.

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**ha! incorporated the construction into this exact post! i win.
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Re: Questions from MGMAT SC guide - help needed

by lunarpower » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:18 am
sp19 wrote:Parallelism
========
1.)The students did poorly on the test more because they hadn't studied than not understanding the material.

Answer in MGMAT SC guide
==================

The students did poorly on the test more because they hadn't studied than because they didn't understand the material.


My Question - Why the answer cannot be as follows :

The students did poorly on the test more because they hadn't studied than because they hadn't understood the material.
the original makes more sense than does your version, because the tenses are more in line with the reality of the situation as described.

specifically:
the students did poorly on the test - this is the later action, and so it's described in the simple past tense.
they hadn't studied the material - this is the earlier action (or, more precisely, lack of action), which is relevant to the later action, and so it's described in the past perfect tense.

now, as for when the students didn't understand the material: they didn't understand the material at the time they were taking the test. because this is simultaneous with the action of taking the test, then, it should appear in the same tense as the description of taking the test: i.e., in the simple past tense.

it doesn't make as much sense to say "...hadn't understood the material", because that seems to refer to the state of the students' understanding at some random point prior to their taking the test, which is ultimately irrelevant.
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