gmat prep - stars

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gmat prep - stars

by Vignesh.4384 » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:32 pm
Hi,

Please help me reason why the OA is E .
I think the sentence has a wierd constrction and "IT" in the later part of the sentence tends to be ambiguous ..
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by Vignesh.4384 » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:02 pm
Some one pls help :?

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by stubbornp » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:48 pm
Both D & E are gramatically correct....

But I also chose d if i was in place of you.... :?

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by Vignesh.4384 » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:02 pm
figured it out myself :)

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by Stacey Koprince » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:22 am
I received a PM asking me to comment on this question.

FYI: in future, it's very helpful if you type the question out rather than posting it as a JPG. When we reply, we can't see the JPG figure on the same page, so we have to keep going back and looking at the problem on a different web page - it takes a lot longer to answer that way.

For pronouns, we have to make sure that the noun match is both logically and structurally sensible.

When you have a structure like this one:
Once <noun subject> <verb> <object containing a noun>, <pronoun subject> <verb> <object>...

The structural expectation is that the subject of the first part will also be the subject of the second part - so the <noun subject> should match the <pronoun subject>. If that also makes logical sense (which it does in this case), then you're good, as long as there isn't another pronoun which makes both structural and logical sense. In other words, in this case, we're good.

In answer D, the <noun subject> is not actually the noun we want to match with the pronoun, so that's one problem. The other problem is that the noun to which we want to refer (Sun) is not a straight noun in the sentence; instead, it is a possessive noun (Sun's). We are only allowed to use possessive pronouns to refer to possessive nouns, but "it" is not a possessive pronoun.

For example:
Susie's dad wouldn't let her go to the game.
Logically, "her" should refer to Susie. But we've got the possessive pronoun "Susie's" in the sentence, and "her" is not a possessive pronoun in this case. The simplest way to check to see if it will work is to pick up the noun to which the pronoun is apparently referring and try to place it in the sentence where the pronoun is currently. Eg:
Susie's dad wouldn't let Susie's go to the game.
That doesn't work, obviously, so the structure is wrong.

Try this one:
Susie's dad didn't like her friend.
replace the pronoun with the possessive noun:
Susie's dad didn't like Susie's friend.
That one's okay.
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by Vignesh.4384 » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:11 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:I received a PM asking me to comment on this question.

FYI: in future, it's very helpful if you type the question out rather than posting it as a JPG. When we reply, we can't see the JPG figure on the same page, so we have to keep going back and looking at the problem on a different web page - it takes a lot longer to answer that way.

For pronouns, we have to make sure that the noun match is both logically and structurally sensible.

When you have a structure like this one:
Once <noun subject> <verb> <object containing a noun>, <pronoun subject> <verb> <object>...

The structural expectation is that the subject of the first part will also be the subject of the second part - so the <noun subject> should match the <pronoun subject>. If that also makes logical sense (which it does in this case), then you're good, as long as there isn't another pronoun which makes both structural and logical sense. In other words, in this case, we're good.

In answer D, the <noun subject> is not actually the noun we want to match with the pronoun, so that's one problem. The other problem is that the noun to which we want to refer (Sun) is not a straight noun in the sentence; instead, it is a possessive noun (Sun's). We are only allowed to use possessive pronouns to refer to possessive nouns, but "it" is not a possessive pronoun.

For example:
Susie's dad wouldn't let her go to the game.
Logically, "her" should refer to Susie. But we've got the possessive pronoun "Susie's" in the sentence, and "her" is not a possessive pronoun in this case. The simplest way to check to see if it will work is to pick up the noun to which the pronoun is apparently referring and try to place it in the sentence where the pronoun is currently. Eg:
Susie's dad wouldn't let Susie's go to the game.
That doesn't work, obviously, so the structure is wrong.

Try this one:
Susie's dad didn't like her friend.
replace the pronoun with the possessive noun:
Susie's dad didn't like Susie's friend.
That one's okay.
Option D : I think option D changes the meaning.
The subject in option D is Hydrogen and not the sun. So the IT in this option refers to hydrogen and not the sun. Hence option D is wrong .

Option E : The subject of the second clause is SUN. so IT modifies SUN correctly.

Is this explanation correct?

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by Stacey Koprince » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:43 am
That's another valid way of thinking about it, yes - either that it changes the meaning or that the pronoun is simply referring to the wrong thing (if you know that, logically, it should be referring to the sun). Either way, you know the answer is wrong! :)
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by stubbornp » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:57 pm
ya...i got that...in D Hydrogen is the subject..

Its also refers to hydrogen which makes it awkward.

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by Vignesh.4384 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:04 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:I received a PM asking me to comment on this question.

FYI: in future, it's very helpful if you type the question out rather than posting it as a JPG. When we reply, we can't see the JPG figure on the same page, so we have to keep going back and looking at the problem on a different web page - it takes a lot longer to answer that way.

For pronouns, we have to make sure that the noun match is both logically and structurally sensible.

When you have a structure like this one:
Once <noun subject> <verb> <object containing a noun>, <pronoun subject> <verb> <object>...

The structural expectation is that the subject of the first part will also be the subject of the second part - so the <noun subject> should match the <pronoun subject>. If that also makes logical sense (which it does in this case), then you're good, as long as there isn't another pronoun which makes both structural and logical sense. In other words, in this case, we're good.

In answer D, the <noun subject> is not actually the noun we want to match with the pronoun, so that's one problem. The other problem is that the noun to which we want to refer (Sun) is not a straight noun in the sentence; instead, it is a possessive noun (Sun's). We are only allowed to use possessive pronouns to refer to possessive nouns, but "it" is not a possessive pronoun.

For example:
Susie's dad wouldn't let her go to the game.
Logically, "her" should refer to Susie. But we've got the possessive pronoun "Susie's" in the sentence, and "her" is not a possessive pronoun in this case. The simplest way to check to see if it will work is to pick up the noun to which the pronoun is apparently referring and try to place it in the sentence where the pronoun is currently. Eg:
Susie's dad wouldn't let Susie's go to the game.
That doesn't work, obviously, so the structure is wrong.

Try this one:
Susie's dad didn't like her friend.
replace the pronoun with the possessive noun:
Susie's dad didn't like Susie's friend.
That one's okay.
Hi Stacey,

The below sentence consists of 3 parts.
phrase , clause1, cluase2.

wrt your explanation, a pronoun in clause2 chould refer to the same subject as in clause1 right? How ever there is a phrase in the begining of the sentence. Is the word they of option C create a ambiguity by refering to price of automobile insurance(cluuse 1) and customers (phrase)? The OA is C :)

For most consumers, the price of automobile insurance continues to rise annually, even if free of damage claims and moving violations.
(A) even if
(B) despite being
(C) even if they are
(D) although they may be
(E) even if remaining

Thnaks,
Vignesh

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by Stacey Koprince » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:14 am
Just to clarify: this holds when you have a pronoun subject in the 2nd clause, not just any old pronoun at all. Also, it doesn't mean that you MUST refer to the noun subject of the first clause - it just means that you woudl most often expect it to structurally, so if that noun subject is an actual match in terms of singular or plural, then you have to consider that noun subject a possible antecedent. If there's another, logical match in the sentence, then you have ambiguity (ie, more than one noun that could be the antecedent, either logically or structurally) and that's a problem.

In the example you've given, "they" is not a problem. Logically it refers to "consumers." Structurally, it would refer to "price," which is not plural... so "they" is not a candidate to refer to "price." No ambiguity is created (there's only one noun that matches in terms of number), so it's fine.

I did a search to see if I could find the source of the problem. I didn't get a definitive answer but it seemed to come from the 1000 SC sets. I also found another site which claimed the official answer was D, not C.

1000SC has many good questions, but it also has some downright bad ones, including problems on which the right answer has errors in it, and the official answer is wrong. It is a mix of old paper and pencil questions and apparently either bad questions from other sources, or errors introduced into good questions via transcription. The problem is: you don't know which ones are good and which are bad,
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by Vignesh.4384 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:20 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:Just to clarify: this holds when you have a pronoun subject in the 2nd clause, not just any old pronoun at all. Also, it doesn't mean that you MUST refer to the noun subject of the first clause - it just means that you woudl most often expect it to structurally, so if that noun subject is an actual match in terms of singular or plural, then you have to consider that noun subject a possible antecedent. If there's another, logical match in the sentence, then you have ambiguity (ie, more than one noun that could be the antecedent, either logically or structurally) and that's a problem.

In the example you've given, "they" is not a problem. Logically it refers to "consumers." Structurally, it would refer to "price," which is not plural... so "they" is not a candidate to refer to "price." No ambiguity is created (there's only one noun that matches in terms of number), so it's fine.

I did a search to see if I could find the source of the problem. I didn't get a definitive answer but it seemed to come from the 1000 SC sets. I also found another site which claimed the official answer was D, not C.

1000SC has many good questions, but it also has some downright bad ones, including problems on which the right answer has errors in it, and the official answer is wrong. It is a mix of old paper and pencil questions and apparently either bad questions from other sources, or errors introduced into good questions via transcription. The problem is: you don't know which ones are good and which are bad,
I got this question from 1000 SC .
I narrowed the choices down 2 D and C.
But i was not able to say wat was wrong with D .
D seems perfectly alright to me .
Do u have any idea why D is wrong ?

And there was a plural form of price in clause1 then the pronoun ref would hav been faulty right ??

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by java_ka_jalwa » Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:23 pm
I think what the sentence wants to convey is that the price continues to increase even if the consumers do not have violations. I.e the even for consumers who surely do no have any violations, they have to face an increase in insurance rates. "may be" introduces some kind of doubt as compared to "they are"



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by Stacey Koprince » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:08 pm
yeah, I'd go with that. C maintains the original meaning completely; D tweaks it ever so slightly.
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by sunnychopra » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:24 pm
Hi Stacey,
i got this concept but i am little confused :?. there is one Question been discussed on our forum[https://www.beatthegmat.com/neurosecretion-t18339.html] i have picked the below question from that thread only.

Until Berta and Ernst Scharrer established the concept of neurosecretion in 1928, scientists believed that either cells secreted hormones, which made them endocrine cells and thus part of the endocrine system, or conducted electrical impulses, in which case they were nerve cells and thus part of the nervous system.

a) either cells secreted hormones, which made them
b) either cells secreted hormones, making them
c) either cells secreted hormones and were
d) cells either secreted hormones, in which case they were
e) cells either secreted hormones, which made them



Finding answer is an easy task in this case as it is an clear example of parallelism. OA is D. however i am not understanding that whether 'they' is refering to cells or hormones? as both are plural.

So, could you please help me out.
This question is just an extension to vignesh's discussion.

Thanks
Regards,
Sunny

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by Stacey Koprince » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:49 am
Just in terms of pure strategy, you actually answered the question yourself - you don't need to worry about the "they" issue in order to answer the question. And I have actually seen official questions in which I would consider a pronoun ambiguous, but there are other clear reasons to eliminate all 4 wrong answers. When we are actually tested on pronoun issues, they make it more clear - but we aren't getting a "them / it" split or anything like that in this one, so that's not what's being tested.

I know that's not the most satisfying answer, but it is what it is.

Here, the structure is:
Cells either did X, in which case they were A, or did Y, in which case they were B.

Our pronoun refers to cells both logically and structurally (notice that subject-placement again), so we're good.

If, in this case, the logical match were actually hormones, then we'd have a problem, because we'd have one logical match (hormones) and a different structural match (cells), both of which are plural. That would be ambiguous.
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