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with, without, nor, or... Hope experts can explain..

This topic has 1 expert reply and 6 member replies
rx_11 Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
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with, without, nor, or... Hope experts can explain..

Post Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:00 am
Elapsed Time: 00:00
  • Lap #[LAPCOUNT] ([LAPTIME])
    In the early part of the twentieth century, many vacationers found that driving automobiles and sleeping in tents allowed them to enjoy nature close at hand and tour at their own pace, with none of the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the formalities, expenses, and impersonality of hotels.

    A. with none of the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the
    B. with none of the restrictions of passenger trains, railroad timetables, nor
    C. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables nor
    D. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the
    E. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or the


    Hi, everyone,

    Totally stucked at this question.

    Anyone can give the correct answer and do some explanations?

    Cheers.

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    gmat_perfect Legendary Member
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    Post Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:27 am
    rx_11 wrote:
    In the early part of the twentieth century, many vacationers found that driving automobiles and sleeping in tents allowed them to enjoy nature close at hand and tour at their own pace, with none of the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the formalities, expenses, and impersonality of hotels.

    A. with none of the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the
    B. with none of the restrictions of passenger trains, railroad timetables, nor
    C. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables nor
    D. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the
    E. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or the

    Hi, everyone,
    Totally stucked at this question.
    Anyone can give the correct answer and do some explanations?
    Cheers.
    Skeleton of the sentence:
    Driving automobiles and sleeping allowed them to enjoy nature, with X or with Y.

    --> it means that "driving and sleeping have X and Y."

    The issues:

    Subject + Verb + Object, With X.

    --> "With X" modifies the subject of the previous clause.

    ==> This kills A, B, and D.

    2. With X or Y is the correct idiom.

    ==> This kills C.

    Answer: E

    Thanked by: rx_11
    vishalj Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
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    Post Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:00 am
    A. with none of the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the
    B. with none of the restrictions of passenger trains, railroad timetables, nor ( Out....comma introduces modifier issue)
    C. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables nor (Out...illogically saying "nor the restrictions of formalities..."; also, nor is not required with "without"...double negation or redundancy)
    D. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the
    E. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or the (change the meaning of the sentence. The vacationers enjoy nature without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the formalities...)

    According to me, both A and D are same. The "with and without" prepositional phrase acts as a adverbial modifier. For the sake of concise structure, I will go with D.

    Deepthi Subbu Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts Default Avatar
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    Post Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:35 am
    Even I go with D.

    Whats the OA?

    GMAT/MBA Expert

    Post Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:39 am
    This is a classic question for vertical elimination.

    Scan the first words of the answer choices: "with none of" vs. "without". "Without" wins the conciseness category, but both mean the same and are grammatically correct, so we leave this detail to help us decide between answer choices later, if necessary.

    Next, the phrase "the restrictions of passenger trains" repeats in all answer choices. No eliminations.

    Next, B omits the "and" from "and railroad timetables". This causes an list of "A, B, nor (X, Y, and Z)." While this division is as ugly as hell and doesn't quite match the sentence logic (it makes better sense to separate into a train list and a hotel list), it is still grammatically correct. However, it dramatically reduces B's chances.

    Finally the last part offers three options:
      B and C end with "nor" but omit the "the", creating the structure "without the X nor Y" / "with none of the X nor Y". To be parallel, it should be "without the X nor the Y." Eliminate B and C.
      A and D end with "or with the", creating the structure "(without the X) or (with the Y)" or "(with none of the X) or (with the Y)". This reinsertion of "with" makes the parallelism include the former "with"/"without" and creates a readability and meaning issue. It makes it look like the vacationers will either travel without trains or they will travel with hotel accomodation. This disagrees with the logic of the sentence. Eliminate A and D.
      E ends with "or the", creating "without the X or the Y". Parallel and grammatically correct - this is the correct answer choice.

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    rx_11 Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
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    Post Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:49 am
    Amit@MasterGMAT wrote:
    This is a classic question for vertical elimination.

    Scan the first words of the answer choices: "with none of" vs. "without". "Without" wins the conciseness category, but both mean the same and are grammatically correct, so we leave this detail to help us decide between answer choices later, if necessary.

    Next, the phrase "the restrictions of passenger trains" repeats in all answer choices. No eliminations.

    Next, B omits the "and" from "and railroad timetables". This causes an list of "A, B, nor (X, Y, and Z)." While this division is as ugly as hell and doesn't quite match the sentence logic (it makes better sense to separate into a train list and a hotel list), it is still grammatically correct. However, it dramatically reduces B's chances.

    Finally the last part offers three options:
      B and C end with "nor" but omit the "the", creating the structure "without the X nor Y" / "with none of the X nor Y". To be parallel, it should be "without the X nor the Y." Eliminate B and C.
      A and D end with "or with the", creating the structure "(without the X) or (with the Y)" or "(with none of the X) or (with the Y)". This reinsertion of "with" makes the parallelism include the former "with"/"without" and creates a readability and meaning issue. It makes it look like the vacationers will either travel without trains or they will travel with hotel accomodation. This disagrees with the logic of the sentence. Eliminate A and D.
      E ends with "or the", creating "without the X or the Y". Parallel and grammatically correct - this is the correct answer choice.
    Thanks Amit, got it!
    The OA is E

    gmat_perfect Legendary Member
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    Post Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:12 am
    vishalj wrote:
    A. with none of the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the
    B. with none of the restrictions of passenger trains, railroad timetables, nor ( Out....comma introduces modifier issue)
    C. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables nor (Out...illogically saying "nor the restrictions of formalities..."; also, nor is not required with "without"...double negation or redundancy)
    D. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the
    E. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or the (change the meaning of the sentence. The vacationers enjoy nature without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the formalities...)

    According to me, both A and D are same. The "with and without" prepositional phrase acts as a adverbial modifier. For the sake of concise structure, I will go with D.
    In the option D, you missed one thing.

    Driving automobiles and sleeping in tents allowed them to enjoy nature close at hand and tour at their own pace, with none of the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the formalities, expenses, and impersonality of hotels.

    D. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the

    I have been allowed to do something, without X or with Y.

    If "COMMA + VERBING" is an adverbial modifier, then it modifies the preceding clause; therefore, it retains the subject of the preceding clause.

    Drop the 'without X".

    Then we get.

    I have been allowed to do something, with Y.

    --> Meaning that I have Y.

    D is faulty.

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    Post Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:47 pm
    Thanks guys....

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