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Harvard MBA HBS 2+2
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smkrn
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Out of curiosity, you said that Stacy Blackman Consulting anticipates the median GMAT to be 690 because it is a program for undergraduate applicants. Why would the median GMAT for undergrads be lower than the median GMAT for traditional applicants?
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legend2005
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I definitely agree that there will be a fairly balanced mix of LAC/Sciences representation and a slight bias towards female applicants.
However, I really think that the actual numbers are going to depend upon how many quality applicants HBS receives this year. I don't think that we can automatically infer that HBS will accept 50 because it claims to want to grow the program over time. I think that if they accept 90, they'll claim that the applicants were incredibly talented and that they were pleased to be able to fully populate the program in its first year. I'm sure that they'd love to be able to do that. Conversely, if only 50 are accepted, the number fits in well with its projection to want to grow the program over time.
Either way, they are in great shape.
I also think that the GMAT score is going to be above HBS' average. College students are probably more likely to score well on the test as opposed to folks a few years out of school. This is not to say that I think that they'll put any sort of cut-off on the program or that a 670 is any more or less competitive for this program as compared than to the regular HBS program. My rationale is that I think the type of applicants likely to apply to this program will tend to be higher scorers--particularly with its focus on math/science folks. I think that they'll be more likely to compare math/science GMATs to math/science GMATs as opposed to LAC GMATs to math/science GMATs.
Does that make sense? All this speculation is quite interesting and fun.
Useful? Probably not so much. (I am including my comments as such)
However, I really think that the actual numbers are going to depend upon how many quality applicants HBS receives this year. I don't think that we can automatically infer that HBS will accept 50 because it claims to want to grow the program over time. I think that if they accept 90, they'll claim that the applicants were incredibly talented and that they were pleased to be able to fully populate the program in its first year. I'm sure that they'd love to be able to do that. Conversely, if only 50 are accepted, the number fits in well with its projection to want to grow the program over time.
Either way, they are in great shape.
I also think that the GMAT score is going to be above HBS' average. College students are probably more likely to score well on the test as opposed to folks a few years out of school. This is not to say that I think that they'll put any sort of cut-off on the program or that a 670 is any more or less competitive for this program as compared than to the regular HBS program. My rationale is that I think the type of applicants likely to apply to this program will tend to be higher scorers--particularly with its focus on math/science folks. I think that they'll be more likely to compare math/science GMATs to math/science GMATs as opposed to LAC GMATs to math/science GMATs.
Does that make sense? All this speculation is quite interesting and fun.
Useful? Probably not so much. (I am including my comments as such)
Yes. That's all this is-- speculation. SBC also specifically mentioned not getting caught up in speculation like this. I'm only doing so because it has yet to take place on the Internet regarding HBS 2+2.
SBC speculates that 690 is the median score because these students have generally not had the opportunity to take the test multiple times at this stage in their careers, perhaps were not planning to apply to a Business School program and take the GMAT, and it was also mentioned that not quite as much is expected of Juniors at this stage of their careers. The latter point was the point emphasized-- that HBS will drop their median score 20 points because they do not expect as much from undergraduate Juniors as they do advanced individuals with business experience applying against a massive pool of people.
As was specified in the latest post, the expectation could be quite the opposite.
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On another note, as displayed, the assertion that HBS expects to eventually fill 90 spots is the best position for them to be in. They can swing either way and be happy. It's an excellent political position.
Regarding students filling spots, one must consider the rationale behind the creation of this program. Tonight at our Oxford High Table dinner I had a lengthy discussion with a sophomore female undergraduate from Harvard. She specified that this program could have been created for two reasons: to pick up rising stars before they head in other directions; secondly, one must consider the Lawrence Summers crisis the University is still recovering from. If HBS 2+2 was created primarily to increase the female matriculation at HBS, a 36% female school, this is one of a number of programs created very recently in the aftermath of Summers. A woman's center was recently created and Drew Gilpin Faust was named President. Faust is a fantastic person and will do a fantastic job; the Women's Center apparently serves little purpose other than a nice place for tea; In light of these things it would be excellent if HBS 2+2 would serve to bolster the female enrollment at HBS. With all of this in mind this is important rationale for the 2+2 accepted applicants to be 55-60% female. Also we should consider that the only major newspaper article available (WSJ) about 2+2 discusses this topic. Improving women's enrollment is a fantastic thing, and this all points to what could be one of the most important reasons behind the creation of 2+2.
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Regardless, it will be interesting to see how things develop.
Best,
SC
SBC speculates that 690 is the median score because these students have generally not had the opportunity to take the test multiple times at this stage in their careers, perhaps were not planning to apply to a Business School program and take the GMAT, and it was also mentioned that not quite as much is expected of Juniors at this stage of their careers. The latter point was the point emphasized-- that HBS will drop their median score 20 points because they do not expect as much from undergraduate Juniors as they do advanced individuals with business experience applying against a massive pool of people.
As was specified in the latest post, the expectation could be quite the opposite.
-----------
On another note, as displayed, the assertion that HBS expects to eventually fill 90 spots is the best position for them to be in. They can swing either way and be happy. It's an excellent political position.
Regarding students filling spots, one must consider the rationale behind the creation of this program. Tonight at our Oxford High Table dinner I had a lengthy discussion with a sophomore female undergraduate from Harvard. She specified that this program could have been created for two reasons: to pick up rising stars before they head in other directions; secondly, one must consider the Lawrence Summers crisis the University is still recovering from. If HBS 2+2 was created primarily to increase the female matriculation at HBS, a 36% female school, this is one of a number of programs created very recently in the aftermath of Summers. A woman's center was recently created and Drew Gilpin Faust was named President. Faust is a fantastic person and will do a fantastic job; the Women's Center apparently serves little purpose other than a nice place for tea; In light of these things it would be excellent if HBS 2+2 would serve to bolster the female enrollment at HBS. With all of this in mind this is important rationale for the 2+2 accepted applicants to be 55-60% female. Also we should consider that the only major newspaper article available (WSJ) about 2+2 discusses this topic. Improving women's enrollment is a fantastic thing, and this all points to what could be one of the most important reasons behind the creation of 2+2.
---------------
Regardless, it will be interesting to see how things develop.
Best,
SC
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smkrn
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I think a lot of valid points have been made. I tend to think that the average GMAT will be either close to or higher than the average GMAT for the regular application process. HBS really doesn't need to accept anyone from 2+2; there are plenty of other stellar candidates that will apply through the traditional application process, and many of them are "young" (with 1 or 2 years of work experience). HBS doesn't need to risk compromising their high standards. And so I tend to think that when taken as a whole, the group that is accepted into 2+2 will have excellent stats.
Again, this is speculation, and it is a prediction about the averages for the class. So that's not to say that applicants with lower GMATs/GPAs won't get in. I just think the average will probably be high.
Regarding the ratio of female to male students: I also think there will be a slight bias towards female students. But I don't think it will be too dramatic, or it would be too blatant that HBS was just trying to attract female students through this initiative. But again, this is all speculation. By the way, I'd be interested to know what percentage of the applicants are female. I would have to guess that it's less than 50%. What do you think?
Again, this is speculation, and it is a prediction about the averages for the class. So that's not to say that applicants with lower GMATs/GPAs won't get in. I just think the average will probably be high.
Regarding the ratio of female to male students: I also think there will be a slight bias towards female students. But I don't think it will be too dramatic, or it would be too blatant that HBS was just trying to attract female students through this initiative. But again, this is all speculation. By the way, I'd be interested to know what percentage of the applicants are female. I would have to guess that it's less than 50%. What do you think?
smkrn- excellent points. I think that HBS does need to accept Liberal Arts students from very diverse backgrounds. With this in mind they may be willing to drop their standards a tad. Perhaps there is a large contingent of these individuals applying through the normal process, and therefore the standards will not be lowered. If the primary goal of this program is to pull students away from law school, then the average GPA and GMAT will absolutely tend to be very high-- If a student is capable of admittance to HLS and applies to HBS 2+2, the student has a 4.0 and is very capable on standardized tests (In my opinion the LSAT is significantly more difficult than the GMAT).
It makes more sense for HBS 2+2 to accept students with very high marks. But then again it strikes me that 2+2 is more of an achievement-based program. They want students who are versatile, who will lead entrepreneurial initiatives and activities that otherwise would not take place at HBS without 2+2. As Diana Kimball notes on her blog, the students admitted to HBS 2+2 would be successful anywhere and will be the change agents of our generation. They will be the Steve Jobs, the Meg Whitmans, the Ralph Laurens, the Hank Paulsons, the Jack Valentis of the future, of our generation. 2+2 is an effort to brand these individuals and provide the resources for them to grow and develop in an age where value creation means something very different than it did ten or twenty years ago.
With this said, 2+2 is certainly looking for agents of change and people who demonstrate above-average capabilities to lead a community or an effort. Whether this requires an above-average GMAT score or GPA is up for debate. Certainly the majority of accepted candidates will hold these prerequisites. However, if ten of the ninety students hold below average scores, this is because someone on the HBS 2+2 Admissions Board holds the capacity to project that student's development into a Whitman or Valenti. This is a very difficult thing to do but is a definite necessity in our day and age. I'm sure Valenti or Whitman would agree-- before the Motion Picture Association of America and eBay were running strong, fueling two of America's largest industries, changing the daily lives of people around the world in a positive way, both of these leaders were young kids with a great deal of potential and hope. Someone saw the potential within these two, and whether they had the requisite scores to attend HBS, what mattered more was their capability, awareness, vitality and drive.
This is why the total application package means so much more than just scores in a business school application. This is why HBS 2+2 will, while including a majority of very high scorers, will include scorers below the average.
The moral of this 2+2 story is to work hard, stay inspired, know yourself, and know what you can do if given the opportunity to attend such a school. If you keep this in mind and continue to pursue the dream, it will come true.
All the Best,
--SC
It makes more sense for HBS 2+2 to accept students with very high marks. But then again it strikes me that 2+2 is more of an achievement-based program. They want students who are versatile, who will lead entrepreneurial initiatives and activities that otherwise would not take place at HBS without 2+2. As Diana Kimball notes on her blog, the students admitted to HBS 2+2 would be successful anywhere and will be the change agents of our generation. They will be the Steve Jobs, the Meg Whitmans, the Ralph Laurens, the Hank Paulsons, the Jack Valentis of the future, of our generation. 2+2 is an effort to brand these individuals and provide the resources for them to grow and develop in an age where value creation means something very different than it did ten or twenty years ago.
With this said, 2+2 is certainly looking for agents of change and people who demonstrate above-average capabilities to lead a community or an effort. Whether this requires an above-average GMAT score or GPA is up for debate. Certainly the majority of accepted candidates will hold these prerequisites. However, if ten of the ninety students hold below average scores, this is because someone on the HBS 2+2 Admissions Board holds the capacity to project that student's development into a Whitman or Valenti. This is a very difficult thing to do but is a definite necessity in our day and age. I'm sure Valenti or Whitman would agree-- before the Motion Picture Association of America and eBay were running strong, fueling two of America's largest industries, changing the daily lives of people around the world in a positive way, both of these leaders were young kids with a great deal of potential and hope. Someone saw the potential within these two, and whether they had the requisite scores to attend HBS, what mattered more was their capability, awareness, vitality and drive.
This is why the total application package means so much more than just scores in a business school application. This is why HBS 2+2 will, while including a majority of very high scorers, will include scorers below the average.
The moral of this 2+2 story is to work hard, stay inspired, know yourself, and know what you can do if given the opportunity to attend such a school. If you keep this in mind and continue to pursue the dream, it will come true.
All the Best,
--SC
Hi everyone,
Just stumbled on this thread, only to discover that scarter referenced a post on my blog! I'm hardly an authority, but I guess the thing about 2+2 is that no one's an authority. Wanted to wish everyone the best of luck with their applications, and affirm everything that scarter has said so far—those analyses are pretty much spot-on. Just in case you're interested, here's an account of my own recent GMAT experience:
https://www.dianakimball.com/2008/06/loc ... -gmat.html
Hope you're all able to stay calm and optimistic these next few days / weeks! Congratulations again on making it this far.[/i]
Just stumbled on this thread, only to discover that scarter referenced a post on my blog! I'm hardly an authority, but I guess the thing about 2+2 is that no one's an authority. Wanted to wish everyone the best of luck with their applications, and affirm everything that scarter has said so far—those analyses are pretty much spot-on. Just in case you're interested, here's an account of my own recent GMAT experience:
https://www.dianakimball.com/2008/06/loc ... -gmat.html
Hope you're all able to stay calm and optimistic these next few days / weeks! Congratulations again on making it this far.[/i]
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aimforthebest
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Some very interesting comments. I somehow tend to disagree on the fact that GMAT scores for the program will be very high. I don't believe that the verbal skills of a junior can match that of individuals who have worked in the business industry for 3-4 years. I might be wrong, but then thats just my view.
Its really quite unclear what the 2+2 program is targeting. If its a move to get a greater % of women at HBS, then well I would be a little disappointed. That would just be a sophisticated way of creating a strong bias towards one set of applicants. I'm sure that there are some absolutely fantastic students applying for the 2+2 and well frankly HBS should base their final selection of an applicant irrespective of gender.
Also after trying to find out so much about the 2+2 for a long time, its quite surprising that this thread has revealed that there are indeed a number of applicants for the process. Scarter, your profile looks fantastic - I don't believe that giving the gmat again is of any use but nonetheless your chances for selection look very bright.
Its really quite unclear what the 2+2 program is targeting. If its a move to get a greater % of women at HBS, then well I would be a little disappointed. That would just be a sophisticated way of creating a strong bias towards one set of applicants. I'm sure that there are some absolutely fantastic students applying for the 2+2 and well frankly HBS should base their final selection of an applicant irrespective of gender.
Also after trying to find out so much about the 2+2 for a long time, its quite surprising that this thread has revealed that there are indeed a number of applicants for the process. Scarter, your profile looks fantastic - I don't believe that giving the gmat again is of any use but nonetheless your chances for selection look very bright.
Diana- Thank you for the information you've posted online regarding the 2+2 program. Given that no applicants prior to yourself had posted anything about the program, your words are novel and inspiring.
Aimforthebest- your rationale for GMAT scoring is right on track with a recent HBS MBA Graduate working for Stacy Blackman Consulting. This is what I was told in early May when working to put together the best preparation program for HBS 2+2 (using Financial Aid I put together the very best package Beat The GMAT recommended - that would be another discussion - SBC and Veritas Prep both have very positive aspects, but there are more considerations and I would definitely critique both companies in order to maximize a candidate's chances of succeeding - this is something we should discuss in the next post - ask if you'd like to know).
There certainly are a number of applicants coming together within this thread. I thought it was amazing that one of the recent posters was a Presidential Fellow this year and we were in the same room during a (humbly) Conference talk I gave. From what I've found, in the Information Age we are all a part of a Network Society, and as members of the same collegiate class with similar aspirational paths, we seem to resurface in the same places time and again.
This is why HBS 2+2 is an extremely worthwhile, practical, and life-changing program- a further extension of one of Diana's thoughts would suggest that collecting these individuals into one place is more difficult than ever before, and this trailblazing program is an effort to brand these individuals early. Harvard is recognizing that young individuals are empowered in a different way than they were 50, 20, even 10 years ago. They are empowered earlier, personal value is generated at a higher rate, and the world shifts at a higher pace than it once did. These days societies at any scale are best seen as networks rather than as bounded groups in hierarchical structures. Therefore it is extremely important for HBS to begin the search early.
Furthermore, this is ample reason to suggest Wharton's flawed thinking:
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I'm taking a second GMAT on Tuesday. These days in Oxford, rather than venturing through Christchurch Meadow, Magdalen College, watching the new Batman film at the iMax Theater in London, visiting Versailles in France or even flying to Cairo on Uncle Sam's Sallie Mae Financial Aid money, I'm practicing OG11 problems all day. That's what you've gotta do to Beat the GMAT. Taking the test again, aimforthebest, may have a positive outcome. Diana suggested that from her experience at Harvard, within the whole scheme of the application package, the test score makes very little difference. This would question the purpose of this forum, but the GMAT is another indicator to brighten your chances. Like your name, aimforthebest, I'll submit the score, and perhaps it will assist.
Finally, what the former HBS Admissions Board member working for SBC told me is that you never know how an applicant will be viewed by the Admissions Board. People have been admitted with 550 GMATs. A dynamic friend, former Morehouse Valedictorian and 2L at HLS told me that perspectives on Admissions Board quotas are shifting. Why should a certain student be chosen over another? What is diversity? This is a heavily debated topic, and certainly not only in the directions you'd think it would head. Higher education and admissions criteria are shifting everyday, suggesting that each of us are diverse in our own way, and that success at HBS 2+2 or any other program for that matter is in the eye of the beholder.
Especially in this program, if you have a bright world-changing future, they would be remiss to deny your entry. For the time being we all can only be positive and hopeful.
All the Best,
--SC
Aimforthebest- your rationale for GMAT scoring is right on track with a recent HBS MBA Graduate working for Stacy Blackman Consulting. This is what I was told in early May when working to put together the best preparation program for HBS 2+2 (using Financial Aid I put together the very best package Beat The GMAT recommended - that would be another discussion - SBC and Veritas Prep both have very positive aspects, but there are more considerations and I would definitely critique both companies in order to maximize a candidate's chances of succeeding - this is something we should discuss in the next post - ask if you'd like to know).
There certainly are a number of applicants coming together within this thread. I thought it was amazing that one of the recent posters was a Presidential Fellow this year and we were in the same room during a (humbly) Conference talk I gave. From what I've found, in the Information Age we are all a part of a Network Society, and as members of the same collegiate class with similar aspirational paths, we seem to resurface in the same places time and again.
This is why HBS 2+2 is an extremely worthwhile, practical, and life-changing program- a further extension of one of Diana's thoughts would suggest that collecting these individuals into one place is more difficult than ever before, and this trailblazing program is an effort to brand these individuals early. Harvard is recognizing that young individuals are empowered in a different way than they were 50, 20, even 10 years ago. They are empowered earlier, personal value is generated at a higher rate, and the world shifts at a higher pace than it once did. These days societies at any scale are best seen as networks rather than as bounded groups in hierarchical structures. Therefore it is extremely important for HBS to begin the search early.
Furthermore, this is ample reason to suggest Wharton's flawed thinking:
In order to maintain pace in a new age, Wharton should consider the creation of such a program."We don't necessarily support the idea of a two-year deferred admission," says Thomas Caleel, director of M.B.A. admissions and financial aid at The Wharton School at The University of Pennsylvania.
---------------------
I'm taking a second GMAT on Tuesday. These days in Oxford, rather than venturing through Christchurch Meadow, Magdalen College, watching the new Batman film at the iMax Theater in London, visiting Versailles in France or even flying to Cairo on Uncle Sam's Sallie Mae Financial Aid money, I'm practicing OG11 problems all day. That's what you've gotta do to Beat the GMAT. Taking the test again, aimforthebest, may have a positive outcome. Diana suggested that from her experience at Harvard, within the whole scheme of the application package, the test score makes very little difference. This would question the purpose of this forum, but the GMAT is another indicator to brighten your chances. Like your name, aimforthebest, I'll submit the score, and perhaps it will assist.
Finally, what the former HBS Admissions Board member working for SBC told me is that you never know how an applicant will be viewed by the Admissions Board. People have been admitted with 550 GMATs. A dynamic friend, former Morehouse Valedictorian and 2L at HLS told me that perspectives on Admissions Board quotas are shifting. Why should a certain student be chosen over another? What is diversity? This is a heavily debated topic, and certainly not only in the directions you'd think it would head. Higher education and admissions criteria are shifting everyday, suggesting that each of us are diverse in our own way, and that success at HBS 2+2 or any other program for that matter is in the eye of the beholder.
Especially in this program, if you have a bright world-changing future, they would be remiss to deny your entry. For the time being we all can only be positive and hopeful.
All the Best,
--SC
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legend2005
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Scarter, after your next test, you really should take the time to wander around the Christchurch Meadow or visit Magdalen College's Deer Park (I'm hoping that you've heard the history behind it!)...few places in the world have the timeless beauty that one can find in Oxford. 
In any case, I'm curious to read how applicants even discovered this program. I know that HBS did a lot of online advertising. I must admit that I had only heard about the program due to a facebook ad. Did anyone else find out about it online?
Also, to Diana...even without knowing anything about you beyond a few blog posts, I think your chances for admission are superb. You're obviously incredibly articulate and bright...and your blog is ranked #4 when googling "HBS 2+2". I'm not sure that HBS wants to scare away next year's applicants by rejecting an incredibly perceptive and erudite blogger who appears to be the very epitome of whom they are trying to attract... Just my two cents...
In any case, I'm curious to read how applicants even discovered this program. I know that HBS did a lot of online advertising. I must admit that I had only heard about the program due to a facebook ad. Did anyone else find out about it online?
Also, to Diana...even without knowing anything about you beyond a few blog posts, I think your chances for admission are superb. You're obviously incredibly articulate and bright...and your blog is ranked #4 when googling "HBS 2+2". I'm not sure that HBS wants to scare away next year's applicants by rejecting an incredibly perceptive and erudite blogger who appears to be the very epitome of whom they are trying to attract... Just my two cents...
I found out about the program through a Dean's recommendation in relation to a NYT advertisement he saw. He considered the program a very good fit.
Yes, I love Oxford. This is the second Summer studying there, this time focusing on Shakespeare.
I agree regarding Diana. Her chances are superb!
All the Best,
--SC
Yes, I love Oxford. This is the second Summer studying there, this time focusing on Shakespeare.
I agree regarding Diana. Her chances are superb!
All the Best,
--SC
Interesting discussion. I too applied to 2+2, but read that its going to be mostly a numbers game. Guess with most admissions things, its going hard to predict what's going to happen. Out of interest, how did you guys come up with next week/August 1st being the latest date interview invites will be sent by? I ask because I've actually been wondering since I'm an international student and the interviews are on-site so I will need to book tickets soon if I get an interview.
BTW, scarter, I see you're at Oxford for the summer. Are you at any college in particular?
BTW, scarter, I see you're at Oxford for the summer. Are you at any college in particular?
etlien- A knowledgable source (Stacy Blackman Consulting) told me that the interviews will be offered all the way up until the August 16th-24th interview session. First rounds of interviews most likely will be offered July 25-August 1 for the students selected first. Fringe interviewees will most likely be offered later, perhaps August 5-10. Only when an e-mail is sent out to all applicants stating that all interviews have been offered will you know the process is over.
I'm studying at New College. If you're at Oxford, drop me a message.
I'm studying at New College. If you're at Oxford, drop me a message.
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smkrn
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I heard about the 2+2 program from my brother-in-law, who was applying to business schools last fall. I think he read about it online while doing his applications, and then he told me.legend2005 wrote: In any case, I'm curious to read how applicants even discovered this program. I know that HBS did a lot of online advertising. I must admit that I had only heard about the program due to a facebook ad. Did anyone else find out about it online?
I heard about it through my schools daily (e-)mail, I was abroad last year but HBS came to my school to give a presentation on 2+2.smkrn wrote:I heard about the 2+2 program from my brother-in-law, who was applying to business schools last fall. I think he read about it online while doing his applications, and then he told me.legend2005 wrote: In any case, I'm curious to read how applicants even discovered this program. I know that HBS did a lot of online advertising. I must admit that I had only heard about the program due to a facebook ad. Did anyone else find out about it online?
