Even though Clovis points

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Even though Clovis points

by melguy » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:37 am

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Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.

A. Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.
B. Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America.
C. Named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932, Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over North America.
D. Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.
E. While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them, they have been found all over North America, and named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932.


Please help me with the problem. Also, please justify why are B and D the wrong answer choices.
Also, what is their referring back to A. How is their used correctly here?

OA is A.

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by [email protected] » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:02 pm

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Hi melguy,

In this SC, we're dealing with a variety of grammar and style rules. The commas that you see are a clue that we're probably going to deal with "modification rules". As you read the answers, there's also some style issues ("active voice" and "comparisons")

As a general rule, you want to place your subject/noun earlier in the sentence than everything else (this is what's called "active voice"). There are some exceptions, of course, especially when you deal with modification rules. You also have to consider how a sentence "flows." This is sometimes tough to teach to non-native English speakers, but I'll do my best to point out when an answer sounds "clunky" and to explain why.

The order of the ideas in the sentences is a good way to figure out of something is "clunky"
A - Contrast phrase, Subject, modifier/description, description, comparison = This SOUNDS CORRECT

B - Contrast phrase with comparison (and date), Subject that leads into a run-on phrase = CLUNKY. The position of the "1932" is awkward and the rest of the sentence would need some commas to break it up.

C - Modifier/description (and date), Subject, modifier/description, more description. = STYLE/INTENT PROBLEM. Same problem with the position of "1932". If the points were discovered in New Mexico, then why mention that they've been found all over North America? The "intent" of the sentence is that there's a comparison between NM and America and this sentence does not have that comparison.

D - Modifier/description, Subject, comparison, description = CLUNKY. "...grooves THAT are chipped onto THE faces" has a couple of problems on its own, regardless of the rest of the sentence.

E - Contrast word, Subject, modifier, comparison = CLUNKY. The last two parts of the sentence don't provide the necessary contrast that is implied.

The word "their" (in answer A) refers to "their faces", meaning the Clovis spear points.

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by GMATGuruNY » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:38 am

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melguy wrote:Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.

A. Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.
B. Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America.
C. Named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932, Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over North America.
D. Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.
E. While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them, they have been found all over North America, and named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932.
B and D: where first discovered.
A where-clause must contain a subject.
Eliminate B and D.

C and E: have been first discovered in 1932.
The present perfect (have been discovered) cannot serve to refer to a specific time (in 1932).
Eliminate C and E.

The correct answer is A.

In the OA, they (subject pronoun) clearly refers to the subject of the preceding clause (Clovis points).
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by melguy » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:15 am

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Thanks to both experts for your valuable input and time. Makes perfect sense now.

Actually when I read 'their faces' I was expecting human beings as subject :P Hence, I was unable to make any sense (Answer choice A).

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by notyet » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:04 am

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GMATGuruNY wrote:
melguy wrote:Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.

A. Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.
B. Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America.
C. Named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932, Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over North America.
D. Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.
E. While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them, they have been found all over North America, and named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932.
B and D: where first discovered.
A where-clause must contain a subject.
Eliminate B and D.

C and E: have been first discovered in 1932.
The present perfect (have been discovered) cannot serve to refer to a specific time (in 1932).
Eliminate C and E.

The correct answer is A.

In the OA, they (subject pronoun) clearly refers to the subject of the preceding clause (Clovis points).

Hi! Nice explanation!
But unfortunately I eliminated correct choice A when I noticed " they are named ... where they were first discovered in 1932. "
I think it should be "they were named" ???
It's still confusing to me and how should I avoid these fault...
Thank you!! :)

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by GMATGuruNY » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:49 am

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notyet wrote: Hi! Nice explanation!
But unfortunately I eliminated correct choice A when I noticed " they are named ... where they were first discovered in 1932. "
I think it should be "they were named" ???
It's still confusing to me and how should I avoid these fault...
Thank you!! :)
To express a GENERAL TRUTH -- something that is true now and is expected to remain true in the future -- we use the SIMPLE PRESENT TENSE.
OA: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.
Here, are named (simple present tense) serves to express why the spear points under discussion are known as Clovis points: Clovis is where the spear points were first discovered.
Since this name constitutes a GENERAL TRUTH about the spear points, the usage of the simple present tense is warranted.
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by Ali Tariq » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:52 am

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Usage of present perfect tense mandates reference point in present.

A. Even though Clovis points have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.

reference point in present-->they are named for the New Mexico site

Following version wouldn't have been incorrect either:
Even though Clovis points are found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.

Even though Clovis points are found all over North America
is a fact
they are named for the New Mexico site is also a fact.
Simple present tense is used to communicate a fact.

Simple past tense used in conjunction with present perfect tense can be problematic.

Keep simple present tense with simple present tense, if both pieces of informations are fact.
or
Simple present tense with present perfect tense to show reference point in present.

PS:
where they were first discovered in 1932.
For an event happened at a specific point of time in past, simple past tense is appropriate( or at times past perfect tense if conditions specific for its usage are met).
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by [email protected] » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:04 pm

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Hello Everyone!

This is a great example of a question that has the entire sentence underlined. These can seem tricky, but if we apply the same method we use for other types of questions, we can still narrow down our options quickly and get to the correct choice! To begin, here is the original question with all the major differences between the options highlighted in orange:

Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.

(A) Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.
(B) Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America.
(C) Named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932, Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over North America.
(D) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.
(E) While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them, they have been found all over North America, and named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932.

While there are many more things we could focus on, here are just a few simple ones that jump out:

1. ...spear points with/of/whose faces have longitudinal grooves (Idioms)
2. have been found / were found (Verb Tense)
3. were discovered / discovered / have been discovered (Verb Tense/Meaning)


Whenever we see an entire sentence underlined, we can also focus our attention to "big ticket" grammar problems, such as modifiers, parallelism, and intended meaning. However, we're going to start with the basic differences we found while scanning over the options quickly.

Let's start with #1 on our list: with/of/whose faces have. When describing something, we have some idiom rules we need to follow:

noun + WITH + detail --> CORRECT
(The boy with the red hat... / Flowers with purple leaves... / Songs with banjos...)

noun + OF + detail --> WRONG
(The word "of" used in this way becomes a possessive, like when we say "The students of the theatre." This means the students belong to the theatre, which is not what we're trying to do here.)

So, let's see how each of our options breaks down:

(A) Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.
(B) Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America.
(C) Named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932, Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over North America.
(D) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.
(E) While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them, they have been found all over North America, and named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932.

We can eliminate options B & C because they say "spears of," which changes the meaning to "the spears belong to longitudinal grooves," which doesn't make any sense.

Let's move on to #2 on our list: have been found vs. were found. While they are both grammatically correct to use in this sentence, they do mean two completely different things:

have been found = Clovis points were found all over North America in the past, and they're still found there today
were found = Clovis points were found all over North America in the past, but no one has found any today

It makes more sense to say that Clovis points were found all over North America and still are today, so let's stick with the options that reflect that:

(A) Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.
(D) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.
(E) While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them, they have been found all over North America, and named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932.

We can eliminate option D because it uses the incorrect "were found," which changes the intended meaning.

Now that we've got it narrowed down to only 2 options, let's focus on some of those "big ticket" issues we discussed earlier. Check to make sure modifiers are in the right places, everything is parallel, and the meaning isn't distorted or illogical:

(A) Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.

This is CORRECT! The phrase "even though" sets up a contrast between the fact that Clovis points are named after where they were discovered, but they're actually found all over North America. It also uses the right verb tenses, idiom structures, and a clear, logical meaning.

(E) While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them, they have been found all over North America, and named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932.

This is INCORRECT. By starting the sentence with a clause beginning with the word "while," we expect the phrase after it to be the other side of the contrast. If you read the red part by itself, it doesn't really work, does it? What does finding them in North America have to do with the grooves in them? Nothing. The contrast should be between the fact that they can be found all over North America, but they were named for a specific site in New Mexico.


There you have it - option A is the correct choice!


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by vietnam47 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:58 pm

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what is the order of steps of thinking when we do a sc problem. when we write a sentence, at first we have an idea to communicate, then we think of pattern.

process of doing sc problem is the same as a process of writing. we focus on meaning first and then on grammar point latter.
specifically, we will do the following steps (this order is explained in an article in this forum, you can find it in the library)

-try to understand the intended meaning when you read the original choice.
-try to find meaning error first. this is logic because we are now focusing on understanding meaning
-eliminate 3 choices with meaning problems.
-for 2 remaining choices, find the MINOR GRAMMATICAL ERRORS such as agreement, or use of preposition , or verb forms. this error is easy to explain but hard to find because the sentence is long. this kind of error can be seen only when 2 choices remain.

apply the above step to our problem.

although shows a suprise, choice a is good.
choice b: "although named" and "are named" is not in a supprise relation. it is not logic
choice c:. it is good. we focus on meaning now, but not on minor grammar errors. keep choice c.
choice d: both "though" and "but" are used. redundant meaning error.
choice e: "while" shows in a process of. it is not logic here. the "are spear" and "have been found" can not be connected with "while".

now, we eliminate 3 choice with meaning errors. choice a and c are left.
it is time to focus on minor grammar error. look at choice c word by word. "have been first discovered" is wong tense.
choice A is left.