Ron your my hero!! Your advice is impeccable as always! Your incredibly smart and may I say, from your Manhattan GMAT picture, a darn good looken fella <nudge nudge wink wink>. Comon you gotta know its true.
https://www.manhattangmat.com/gmat-prep- ... urewal.cfm
550 to 720 in 5 weeks ? Experts pls. Help !!
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Can anyone advise on RCS. I am also getting 530 scores constantly in MGMAT scores. Do I need to revise OGS RCS and RC99. Pls help.
Overall scores are in range of 40-45 in maths and verbal 21-24 in verbal.
Pls share your insights on RCS.
Gmat Guns Help
Overall scores are in range of 40-45 in maths and verbal 21-24 in verbal.
Pls share your insights on RCS.
Gmat Guns Help
Noone else will do it. Only I will do it. No Matter how difficult is my dream. Those who think can only achieve it.!!!
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alltimeacheiver wrote:Can anyone advise on RCS. I am also getting 530 scores constantly in MGMAT scores. Do I need to revise OGS RCS and RC99. Pls help.
Overall scores are in range of 40-45 in maths and verbal 21-24 in verbal.
Pls share your insights on RCS.
Gmat Guns Help
RC is not something that requires a great deal of topic-specific preparation. after a certain, fairly modest, amount of studying, you are probably going to reach the upper limit of where you're going to get with specific gmat-related studying.alltimeacheiver wrote:Can anyone advise on RCS. I am also getting 530 scores constantly in MGMAT scores. Do I need to revise OGS RCS and RC99. Pls help.
Overall scores are in range of 40-45 in maths and verbal 21-24 in verbal.
Pls share your insights on RCS.
Gmat Guns Help
after all, the point of rc is that no pre-existing knowledge is necessary. unlike, say, the quant section, the rc section does not require any memorized facts or formulas; it is a pure test of reasoning.
therefore, after a fairly short period of time, continued practice is not going to yield much, if anything, in the way of results. (i understand that this news can be somewhat painful for many posters on this board, who come from a culture and upbringing that emphasize the idea of "the guys who works the hardest and spends the most hours wins", but that is NOT the way this test -- or business management, for that matter -- works.) in fact, if you have the wrong habits or the wrong mentality, then studying more and more is just going to dig that hole deeper and deeper, eventually making it more, not less, difficult to develop the correct mentality and habits.
in any case, if you are still stuck at a very low performance in rc after a certain amount of studying, then at least one of the following two things -- maybe both of them -- will be true:
1/
you aren't thinking about the passages or problems in the right way, or you haven't really learned what the different question types are actually asking you to do.
this is the problem for many students: they don't even get to a point where they understand the general functioning of each problem type.
here's one example of what i mean by "general functioning": inference problems require you to pick the answer that *must* be true, given the information actually present in the passage. i.e., inference problems are NOT "author's purpose" questions; they do not require you to think about what the author is probably thinking, or to ascertain the main idea, etc.
it's easy enough for me to state that -- but i've encountered a huge number of students who, after studying for hours and hours and hours, still don't really understand this basic principle. or they make similar mistakes, such as thinking that "main idea" or "primary purpose" will just be a bunch of facts.
... or, most notably, they are still reading the passages as though they were random chunks of disconnected facts, rather than concentrating on the relationships among those facts.
2/
your english proficiency isn't sufficient yet.
i've encountered some students who were perplexed by their low rc scores, but whose command of the english language was very shaky. these students were generally unfamiliar with at least two or three words in every sentence of the passage, or couldn't tell which words were meant to describe which other words; in some cases, they were barely able to write an intelligible sentence of their own in english.
these students are extreme examples, of course -- but you get the point: you aren't going to do well at rc until you have a sufficient command of the english language (in its written form).
if this paragraph describes you -- even a little bit -- then you should probably postpone your gmat aspirations for a few months, or perhaps until the next year's application cycle. in the more immediate future, you should concentrate on getting better at reading (and writing) english, and then return to the rc passages when reading and understanding them is less of a challenge.
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re: resources
OG RC is, obviously, a good source; it is actually designed for this exam, and so the passages and questions will be of the type that you'll actually see on the exam.
the two official guides (the twelfth edition and the verbal supplement) contain plenty of passages; you really shouldn't need more material than that. beyond that number of passages, you are really just spinning your wheels; if you still have issues, then your problem will be one of #1 and #2 above (or even both).
you shouldn't use RC99, which is a compilation of passages stolen from other prep companies, mostly from kaplan's MCAT books. (come on, guys, do you think they could really sell ninety-nine passages for $15 USD if they hadn't stolen them?}
from the student's perspective, the real problem with RC99 is not the fact that the passages are stolen; that's an intellectual-property issue for the prep companies to handle. the real issue is that the RC99 passages are not GMAT passages, and so they don't work like GMAT passages.
most of the passages in RC99 are taken from MCAT passages -- which are exactly what gmat passages are not: mostly just giant clusters of facts with few, if any, overarching relationships. (this makes sense for the MCAT, because medical school is mostly just a bunch of memorization.) therefore, if you do lots of practice in that source, you may well be less prepared -- and certainly less well oriented -- for GMAT RC than before you even started.
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in short:
stick with OG passages.
if you get through a large number of OG passages and you are still having a lot of trouble, then the issue isn't the problems themselves; stop, and think about #1/#2 above.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.
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Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi
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Ron,
Your advice is great as always. The part about spending more time reviewing quant problems vs. doing them, and focusing on a key take away especially resonated with me. My question to you is-
How much time should one spend reviewing a math problem? People have different approaches to problems, and those approaches are countless. On this Saturday morning, I have spent 30 minutes on ONE data sufficiency problem on remainders. Looked at the Manhattan GMAT forum, then on here, absorbed both approaches, wrote down my take aways. You catch my drift. When do you know you have the optimal take away and you should stop? At this rate it will take me 2 years (with a full time hectic job) to really prepare myself for the math portion and get from my score of 660 to 700+.
Any advice appreciated! Thank you so much. [/quote]
Your advice is great as always. The part about spending more time reviewing quant problems vs. doing them, and focusing on a key take away especially resonated with me. My question to you is-
How much time should one spend reviewing a math problem? People have different approaches to problems, and those approaches are countless. On this Saturday morning, I have spent 30 minutes on ONE data sufficiency problem on remainders. Looked at the Manhattan GMAT forum, then on here, absorbed both approaches, wrote down my take aways. You catch my drift. When do you know you have the optimal take away and you should stop? At this rate it will take me 2 years (with a full time hectic job) to really prepare myself for the math portion and get from my score of 660 to 700+.
Any advice appreciated! Thank you so much. [/quote]
lunarpower wrote:answering a pm
100 problems a day?Rukz wrote:I am restarting from tommorrow and have decided to do 20 Problem Solving, 20 DS, 20 SC, 20 CR and 20 RC daily. I will go back to the OG as it has been a while since I touched it.
Sat for test and Sun for review.
*five* days of just doing problems for every *one* day of review?
this is not good... not good at all.
if you're studying properly, you should be spending substantially MORE time on review than on doing problems. if you can do even close to 100 problems per day, that indicates that you're just doing problem after problem after problem after problem after problem, and not spending nearly enough (if any) time reviewing.
here's what you should be able to do:
for EVERY quant problem:
* don't concentrate on the solution to that actual problem, since you can be sure you aren't going to see that actual problem on the exam
* instead, try to find TAKEAWAYS from the problem, which you can then APPLY TO OTHER PROBLEMS. this is key - DO NOT LEAVE A PROBLEM until you have extracted at least one piece of information, whether a formula, a strategy, a trick/trap, etc., that you can apply to OTHER problems.
do not leave a problem until you can fill in the following sentence, meaningfully and nontrivially:
"if i see _____ ON ANOTHER PROBLEM, i should _____"
* notice the SIGNALS in the problem that dictate which strategy to use. if you miss the problem, then notice the strategy that's used in the book's solution (not always the best solution, in the case of the o.g., but better than nothing), and go back to see if there are any signals 'telling' you to use that strategy.
for EVERY verbal problem:
* you should be able to give SPECIFIC reasons why EVERY wrong answer is wrong, and why EVERY right answer is right. ("i just know that it's wrong/right" is NEVER acceptable -- you need to think carefully about the problem until you have discerned a specific reason.)
* you should GENERALIZE these lessons in ways that could conceivably apply to future problems (e.g., "on this problem type, any answer choice more general than the passage = wrong").
for EVERY SC problem, in addition to the above:
* you should be able to go through the CORRECT sentence -- including the non-underlined part -- and justify EVERY construction in that sentence.
e.g.
-- if there's a modifier, you should be able to explain exactly what it modifies, and exactly why that modification makes sense.
-- if there's a pronoun, you should be able to explain exactly what it stands for, and exactly why that makes sense.
-- if there's a verb, you should be able to find its subject. you should also be able to justify the tense in which the verb is used, and/or the tense sequence of multiple verbs.
-- you should be able to explain the exact meaning of the sentence.
-- if there are parallel structures, you should be able to explain (a) the grammatical parallelism AND (b) the parallelism in meaning.
etc.
if you're doing these things, there's no way you'll be able to get through even half that number of problems.
quantity ≠quality.
this doesn't seem reasonable; if this is really happening, then the result is 100% due to psychological factors -- i.e., you're telling yourself you're going to do worse at topic X, so, surprise!, you do worse at topic X.Another point to note is that if I practice SC today then tomm. I perform well in SC and bad in other areas of Verbal. If I practice CR today then RC and SC will inevitable fall.
barring things like brain lesions or memory disorders, the kinds of skills that are necessary for this exam can't reasonably be forgotten in less than a month or two.
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also, DO NOT STUDY FOR SEVEN DAYS A WEEK.
do not do it.
you need at least 1 day OFF per week.
you also need at least 1.5-2 hours of FREE TIME each day.
if you don't have these rest periods, your brain will not make lateral connections, as i've mentioned in some previous posts.
Ron,
Your advice is great as always. The part about spending more time reviewing quant problems vs. doing them, and focusing on a key take away especially resonated with me. My question to you is-
How much time should one spend reviewing a math problem? People have different approaches to problems, and those approaches are countless. On this Saturday morning, I have spent 30 minutes on ONE data sufficiency problem on remainders. Looked at the Manhattan GMAT forum, then on here, absorbed both approaches, wrote down my take aways. You catch my drift. When do you know you have the optimal take away and you should stop? At this rate it will take me 2 years (with a full time hectic job) to really prepare myself for the math portion and get from my score of 660 to 700+.
Any advice appreciated! Thank you so much.
GMAT/MBA Expert
- lunarpower
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that doesn't sound unreasonable.adt29 wrote:How much time should one spend reviewing a math problem? People have different approaches to problems, and those approaches are countless. On this Saturday morning, I have spent 30 minutes on ONE data sufficiency problem on remainders. Looked at the Manhattan GMAT forum, then on here, absorbed both approaches, wrote down my take aways. You catch my drift.
this is going to differ from problem to problem. on some problems, you'll have it down fairly quickly, and you'll know it. on others, you'll want to cross-reference on forums, etc.When do you know you have the optimal take away and you should stop?
in general, here are some indicators that you've actually mastered a problem:
* can you explain it to someone else (who at least understands the underlying concepts)?
* can you solve it in more than one way?
* can you write a similar problem of your own? (not so similar that it's essentially the same problem with different numbers, but similar enough that it uses the same sort of concepts)
i will assume that you are exaggerating here, unless you only have time to go over three or four problems every week.At this rate it will take me 2 years (with a full time hectic job) to really prepare myself for the math portion and get from my score of 660 to 700+.
if all you need is forty points, then you should be able to achieve that sort of gain with nothing except BACKUP METHODS -- backsolving, plugging in your own numbers, and DS number testing. for a summary of those methods, watch the february 4, 2010, video here:
https://www.manhattangmat.com/thursdays-with-ron.cfm
these methods, taken together, will solve something like 50% of all the problems on the whole test. so, until you have thoroughly mastered them and can nail them quickly when they work, you shouldn't really study much else.
also -- how high is your quant score already? if you already have a 660, it might be pretty high already.
remember that the highest possible quant score is 51, so, depending on where you are now, you may already be pretty close to the ceiling.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.
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Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi
--
Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.
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Learn more about ron
Thanks so much! Breakdown of my scores:
1st attempt (June 2010): 630 31V 70% percentile 42Q 61% percentile
2nd attempt (Nov 2010): 660 37V 80% percentile 44Q 68% percentile
The first attempt was without studying the right way (unfocussed GMAT classes from a major brand name and poor advice didn't help my cause). I discovered BTG after that and the second attempt was better, but not completely there. I focused on improving CR and winged SC. Didn't focus on math too much. In wanting to cross the 700+ mark where 720 would be ideal, I realized that the problem is not necessarily verbal at this point, it's math.
This will be my last and final attempt and I have a lot more clarity on what I need to do, and also how I need to do it. My key focus is all of math, but spending time on reviewing problems with "if I see this on another question, I will do this" type of analysis on Excel spreadsheets by topic. I will have to revisit CR but assuming I just need to refresh my memory on that, SC will be my next focus. Correcting sentences doesn't excite me, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there! I plan to give the exam June 1st, 2012 since my work schedule really is erratic with how many hours I put in during the week and weekends (wasn't exaggerating too much!), so I'm giving it the best amount of time that I can before the exam changes.
So to answer your question, my math is at Q44. If my Verbal is about 2 points up, assuming I study SC, and math were to increase by 4 points, that would do a 720 - am I correct? I plan to give the exam June 1st, 2012 since my work schedule really is erratic with how many hours I put in during the week and weekends, so I'm giving it the best amount of time that I can before the exam changes.
Thanks again for replying, I think I sent you a PM twice, not understanding that messages stay in your outbox until they're read. Sorry about that. Please let me know your thoughts when you get a chance! Thanks again.
1st attempt (June 2010): 630 31V 70% percentile 42Q 61% percentile
2nd attempt (Nov 2010): 660 37V 80% percentile 44Q 68% percentile
The first attempt was without studying the right way (unfocussed GMAT classes from a major brand name and poor advice didn't help my cause). I discovered BTG after that and the second attempt was better, but not completely there. I focused on improving CR and winged SC. Didn't focus on math too much. In wanting to cross the 700+ mark where 720 would be ideal, I realized that the problem is not necessarily verbal at this point, it's math.
This will be my last and final attempt and I have a lot more clarity on what I need to do, and also how I need to do it. My key focus is all of math, but spending time on reviewing problems with "if I see this on another question, I will do this" type of analysis on Excel spreadsheets by topic. I will have to revisit CR but assuming I just need to refresh my memory on that, SC will be my next focus. Correcting sentences doesn't excite me, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there! I plan to give the exam June 1st, 2012 since my work schedule really is erratic with how many hours I put in during the week and weekends (wasn't exaggerating too much!), so I'm giving it the best amount of time that I can before the exam changes.
So to answer your question, my math is at Q44. If my Verbal is about 2 points up, assuming I study SC, and math were to increase by 4 points, that would do a 720 - am I correct? I plan to give the exam June 1st, 2012 since my work schedule really is erratic with how many hours I put in during the week and weekends, so I'm giving it the best amount of time that I can before the exam changes.
Thanks again for replying, I think I sent you a PM twice, not understanding that messages stay in your outbox until they're read. Sorry about that. Please let me know your thoughts when you get a chance! Thanks again.
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Do you have any convincing evidence to supportlunarpower wrote:answering a pm
100 problems a day?Rukz wrote:I am restarting from tommorrow and have decided to do 20 Problem Solving, 20 DS, 20 SC, 20 CR and 20 RC daily. I will go back to the OG as it has been a while since I touched it.
Sat for test and Sun for review.
*five* days of just doing problems for every *one* day of review?
this is not good... not good at all.
if you're studying properly, you should be spending substantially MORE time on review than on doing problems. if you can do even close to 100 problems per day, that indicates that you're just doing problem after problem after problem after problem after problem, and not spending nearly enough (if any) time reviewing.
here's what you should be able to do:
for EVERY quant problem:
* don't concentrate on the solution to that actual problem, since you can be sure you aren't going to see that actual problem on the exam
* instead, try to find TAKEAWAYS from the problem, which you can then APPLY TO OTHER PROBLEMS. this is key - DO NOT LEAVE A PROBLEM until you have extracted at least one piece of information, whether a formula, a strategy, a trick/trap, etc., that you can apply to OTHER problems.
do not leave a problem until you can fill in the following sentence, meaningfully and nontrivially:
"if i see _____ ON ANOTHER PROBLEM, i should _____"
* notice the SIGNALS in the problem that dictate which strategy to use. if you miss the problem, then notice the strategy that's used in the book's solution (not always the best solution, in the case of the o.g., but better than nothing), and go back to see if there are any signals 'telling' you to use that strategy.
for EVERY verbal problem:
* you should be able to give SPECIFIC reasons why EVERY wrong answer is wrong, and why EVERY right answer is right. ("i just know that it's wrong/right" is NEVER acceptable -- you need to think carefully about the problem until you have discerned a specific reason.)
* you should GENERALIZE these lessons in ways that could conceivably apply to future problems (e.g., "on this problem type, any answer choice more general than the passage = wrong").
for EVERY SC problem, in addition to the above:
* you should be able to go through the CORRECT sentence -- including the non-underlined part -- and justify EVERY construction in that sentence.
e.g.
-- if there's a modifier, you should be able to explain exactly what it modifies, and exactly why that modification makes sense.
-- if there's a pronoun, you should be able to explain exactly what it stands for, and exactly why that makes sense.
-- if there's a verb, you should be able to find its subject. you should also be able to justify the tense in which the verb is used, and/or the tense sequence of multiple verbs.
-- you should be able to explain the exact meaning of the sentence.
-- if there are parallel structures, you should be able to explain (a) the grammatical parallelism AND (b) the parallelism in meaning.
etc.
if you're doing these things, there's no way you'll be able to get through even half that number of problems.
quantity ≠quality.
this doesn't seem reasonable; if this is really happening, then the result is 100% due to psychological factors -- i.e., you're telling yourself you're going to do worse at topic X, so, surprise!, you do worse at topic X.Another point to note is that if I practice SC today then tomm. I perform well in SC and bad in other areas of Verbal. If I practice CR today then RC and SC will inevitable fall.
barring things like brain lesions or memory disorders, the kinds of skills that are necessary for this exam can't reasonably be forgotten in less than a month or two.
--
also, DO NOT STUDY FOR SEVEN DAYS A WEEK.
do not do it.
you need at least 1 day OFF per week.
you also need at least 1.5-2 hours of FREE TIME each day.
if you don't have these rest periods, your brain will not make lateral connections, as i've mentioned in some previous posts.