Guidance

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Guidance

by ShaneK » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:56 pm
Hello all.. new to the site and looking for guidance!

580 on my first practice exam (GMAT #1), 35Q/35V

8 weeks of study with the Veritas Prep quant books.

680 on my second practice exam with plenty of time (Veritas #1), 47Q/41V.

1) Are the Veritas exam's comparable? I was taken aback by my score. Esp since I had 3-4 minutes left on Q and 11-12 left for V.

2) What approach would you take at this stage of the game to cross that 700 barrier? I'll admit that I haven't studied for the verbal at all.. I thought sentence correction was a legit weakness, but my V score seems to be pretty solid.

I work 50-60 hours a week, so studying M-F is limited. I gave up my social life to study as much as my mind will allow Sat/Sun. I'm afraid that I will begin to lose my quant knowledge if I focus on V. Do I start the higher-level quant books and hope I nail V again?

Thank you for your support. I've been lurking, this is a great website.

P.S. Don't remember seeing a stat question (besides sets) on Veritas #1, is that normal? (it was the subject I had just finished studying, was ready to rock-n-roll! :)

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by David@VeritasPrep » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:59 pm
Shane -

Our Veritas tests as well as other unofficial tests are not really to be used for predicting your score at this time. The only tests that are really predictive are the official GMATPrep practice tests. The Veritas test might be under or over scoring you based on how good you are at the types of questions that are asked most frequently on those tests.

Unofficial tests are good for practicing the computerized format and for working on your stamina, etc.

As to the number of stats questions, you would see 2 or 3 on test day. Sometimes it is tough to identify in the heat of the test, and frankly there are some differences among the practice tests. But I would expect for you to see more than one such question on test day.

Retake the Official GMATPrep test #1 now (You can retake each test at least once). See where your verbal is and what sections you need to work on for both Quant and Verbal. You need to be efficient to work within your busy schedule!

Let me know how I can help.

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by ShaneK » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:13 am
Why give us scores if they aren't a reliable indicator? You could leave that number out and just let us focus on the detailed explanations per question.

Feel like I got my hopes up.

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by David@VeritasPrep » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:06 pm
I do see what you are saying. But every test gives numbers and the number is often close to what a student earns on test day, but it is a different algorithm so it is not going to be the same score as the official test or GMATPrep practice test.

It is okay to get your hopes up. Just take take the GMATPrep again to see where you are. It might be in that very same range.
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by ShaneK » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:30 am
After a discouraging showing on a free MGMAT test (holy Algebra!), I decided to retest the Official.

Quant: 45, 71st percentile, 8 minutes left
Verbal: 39, 87th percentile, 32 minutes left (lol?)
Total Score: 690

Definitely made 3 silly mistakes on the quant.. mad about that, but probably got a lucky guess or two as well.

I got 7 SC questions wrong but smoked the RC and CR. Imagine my RC and CR are forcing my hand at some difficult SC, and I have never studied grammar. I do my best by ear.

I'm at a bit of a crossroads now and again, have the same question as before. How do I get my quant score over the 80% mark? I could study SC, cut those mistakes down to 2-3, and shoot well into the 90th percentile, crossing the 700 mark. However, I've heard that B Schools usually run by the 80/80 rule?

I think my weaknesses are exponents/roots (2 silly mistakes) and coordinate systems (got all 3 of those wrong) accounting for a chunk of my 13 incorrects. I have done 2 algebra books as well as Veritas/MGMAT coverage of exponents- I don't know what it is, I just don't see the answers like I do for other problems.

Any suggestions BTG?

Side question: I hit 690 with a substantial amount of time left and had plenty of energy afterwards.. I've also been as humble as possible- my target was a 650. I started aiming for 700 once I blew passed the 650 mark. Should I aim even higher if I'm finishing with so much time left? My fear is that if I start to study SC, I begin losing my grasp on math.. and clearly my math still needs a bit more work. Stumped :\

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by David@VeritasPrep » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:09 am
Let me address the verbal portion of your question...You need to get a strategy for sentence correction!!!

You say that doing so well at RC and CR is pushing you to tough SC questions. I see the opposite, SC is holding you back from really rocking the other sections. Remember, GMAC has gotten their story straight and the entire section does evolve as one. So one weak area will prevent you from reaching your potential in the other two.

I know that you say you do not want to study grammar - fine, neither do I!! You probably know more about the "grammar" required for sentence correction than you think you do. What you need is an effective strategy.

1) You can do sentence correction "by ear" but you have to do it the right way. You have to make smaller choices. Here is an article that I wrote called "Better Not Best on Sentence Correction" https://www.beatthegmat.com/sentence-cor ... 69595.html

2) Remember to find and look past those things that are not essential to the sentence. In the posting above UWKusky and I talk about understanding what to focus on and what to look past in the sentence.

So the two things to really focus on improving are:

1) Focusing on only a part of the sentence at a time, specifically the part that will help you to eliminate an answer choice (at Veritas we call these Decision Points). Try to NEVER just read the whole sentence and pick the one that sounds best unless you have no other way of choosing between answers.

2) Practice looking past those parts of the sentence that are not essential. Modifiers that are not misplaced, prepositions, and clauses that do not have anything underlined.


Specifically remember this:

1) The modifiers in a sentence must not be misplaced. Generally meaning that adjective modifiers must touch what they modify.

2) If the modifiers are not misplaced you then ignore those and see how the sentence works without them.

3) The sentence does not need to sound good with the modifiers in place!! This is one of the biggest ways that GMAC is able to trap you!

For an example of not sounding good with the modifier check out this one: https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2010/11/ ... ient-truth

Here are examples of working with modifiers (at Veritas we call it "Use it or Lose it"):

https://www.beatthegmat.com/unlike-water ... 71413.html

https://www.beatthegmat.com/taking-sente ... 93343.html

https://www.beatthegmat.com/rain-or-snow-t69526.html


I would say that rather than study grammar too much - study sentence correction as a game. Learn what to focus on and if you study it a bit you will pick up some grammar that you may need. Get another 3 or 4 SC right and your verbal can go from 39 to 44+ assuming you can handle the fun and challenge of the tougher RC and CR questions!
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by ShaneK » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:35 am
Awesome response- what about my Quant being < 80%? This is a no-no, right?

I'll start digging into SC tomorrow.

EDIT: As encouragement for everyone else that might read.. my first practice exam was a 490. My second exam after a month of study? 490. Slowly studied my way up to a 580. Just scored a 690. So far, that's a TWO HUNDRED POINT IMPROVEMENT. If you ever start to doubt yourself, just remember, "Whether you believe that you can or can not, you're right."

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by David@VeritasPrep » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:50 am
Many schools do want you to be over 80% on the Quant Section. I would say even more so than the strict 80/80 rule would be that schools (M.I.T and the like) are looking for that Quant Score. Other schools would be looking solely at the overall score. You would have to check that for each school that you wanted to apply to.

Obviously you need to look at those coordinate geometry problems! Get a couple more of those right and you will be on the way!

Congrats on the improvement that you have shown. You are right to say that this is inspirational! It inspires me even.
By the way, in case you are feeling in need of a little encouragement at any point you might want to read this article: Imagine your way to success on the GMAT https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2013/01/ ... n-the-gmat
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by brianlange77 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:59 pm
ShaneK wrote:After a discouraging showing on a free MGMAT test (holy Algebra!), I decided to retest the Official.

Quant: 45, 71st percentile, 8 minutes left
Verbal: 39, 87th percentile, 32 minutes left (lol?)
Total Score: 690
This is amazing (and potentially insane.) What was the source of this exam? Were the questions a repeat of questions you had already seen in the past? I'm all about fast test-takers, but question the mechanics of answering 41 verbal questions in 43 minutes.
ShaneK wrote:Definitely made 3 silly mistakes on the quant.. mad about that, but probably got a lucky guess or two as well.
I wanted to share a few links that might help you out here. First off, getting rid of those silly/careless errors is a mandatory -- you are truly GIVING UP FREE POINTS here. Take a look at this for some tips/suggestions: https://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... -the-gmat/

Beyond that, I have to ask, with so much time left in each section -- why are you guessing?
ShaneK wrote:I got 7 SC questions wrong but smoked the RC and CR. Imagine my RC and CR are forcing my hand at some difficult SC, and I have never studied grammar. I do my best by ear.
Umm... call this stating the obvious, if you are getting more than 50% of your SC questions wrong -- you need to focus here!!!
ShaneK wrote:I'm at a bit of a crossroads now and again, have the same question as before. How do I get my quant score over the 80% mark? I could study SC, cut those mistakes down to 2-3, and shoot well into the 90th percentile, crossing the 700 mark. However, I've heard that B Schools usually run by the 80/80 rule?
Candidly, worry less about the 80/80 and, for right now, figure out how to maximize your score. Your brain should be able to balance studying both math and verbal -- if you can do as well as you have without much effort taking the exam, you should be able to study in the same way.

Make sense?

-Brian
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by ShaneK » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:07 pm
brianlange77 wrote:This is amazing (and potentially insane.) What was the source of this exam? Were the questions a repeat of questions you had already seen in the past? I'm all about fast test-takers, but question the mechanics of answering 41 verbal questions in 43 minutes.
Test was a reset GMAT Prep I, but I finished in about the same place with the same time my first go.. the 590. My math was 31st percentile.

I've been in the 75th+ percentile with a substantial amount of time left on every verbal section that I've taken. The critical reasoning clicks for me and I go with first instinct (always have). The reading comp I read through once, then the question, then the answers. I can generally figure out what's going on, and if I can't, I might skim the passage again. If it doesn't flow, I guess strategically. I probably have so much time left because I blow through the SC.. I grew up in the inner city and was never taught grammar. Basically, I look for -ed and -ing at the end of words, and make sure the word after the comma is describing whatever they're talking about (if that applies). After that, *shrug* - I did a MGMAT test (where they show you the question difficulty afterwards) and got 50/50 of the 700-800 SC right but most of the easy ones wrong.

My fear is that without a grammar base, studying SC is going to require a substantial amount of time. I'd have to start with raw basics.. my knowledge goes as far as Noun, Adjective, and Verb. That said, since you've both recommended it, then this is what I'm going to do. I've ordered the MGMAT SC book and have the Veritas already.
I wanted to share a few links that might help you out here. First off, getting rid of those silly/careless errors is a mandatory -- you are truly GIVING UP FREE POINTS here. Take a look at this for some tips/suggestions: https://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... -the-gmat/

Beyond that, I have to ask, with so much time left in each section -- why are you guessing?
Thanks for the link- I'll definitely look into it.

As far as "guessing".. well.. I'm a pretty VROOOOOM kind of guy. My flow is bing, bang, boom. If it's interrupted I get thrown off. I wouldn't necessarily say I was guessing- it's an instinctual thing? It's how I get through the other questions as well. But, that said, I've been working on reeling it in my entire life haha (I'm an accountant, you should see how well that works!) :)

Slowing down gives me anxiety and takes substantial willpower. It makes me mentally tired. It's a conundrum.
Umm... call this stating the obvious, if you are getting more than 50% of your SC questions wrong -- you need to focus here!!!
Noted :)

I've kept working math to get it up to par with the verbal. SC is clearly the weakness right now though.
Candidly, worry less about the 80/80 and, for right now, figure out how to maximize your score. Your brain should be able to balance studying both math and verbal -- if you can do as well as you have without much effort taking the exam, you should be able to study in the same way.

Make sense?
Crystal clear Bri.

And just in case I spoke incorrectly or have given the wrong impression, "without much effort"- don't be fooled. This has been one of the most grueling events in my twenty seven years. The test will demoralize, leave you mentally fatigued, hamper your social life, and drain those closest to you.

Quick note for anyone else reading:

I started with a 490. I studied diligently for 28 straight says. I checked my progress- 490 (with the exact same Q/V breakdown). I was crushed.

Fortunately, I landed a new job almost simultaneously. I shifted focus from the GMAT to the new position. Over the course of the next two years, the GMAT lingered in the back of my mind. It had defeated me. I saw a window of opportunity and took it.

After much deliberation I registered for the Live Online Veritas classes. I didn't like flipping from math to verbal and wanted to focus, so I dropped the class (Veritas was very good about this by the way, and even 2 weeks in they refunded me down to the On Demand level). I sat for another practice test- 580. FWEW, maybe I had a shot at this after all. I set my lofty goal @ the 650 mark.

Again I studied diligently, using the same methods that earned me a 3.9 GPA and early graduation. For 28 straight days, I went through a math refresher and some of the Veritas materials. I tested progress- 580. Words can't begin to describe the gutpunch that this was. It was a repeat of my earlier attempt. Sure, I went up 90 points (I prepped by doing mind games and reading again, think it woke up some synpases). But another 4 weeks wasted. I was.. well, I felt a lot of things.

I was sure about one thing though- the GMAT was not going to best me. It was not going to be something that flashed through my mind from time to time. It was not going to be a source of doubt when attempting other progressions.

I should mention at this point that I'm also an avid weightlifter. Juggling a career, relationships, 4 days a week in the gym (and the nutrition requirements that go with it i.e. I prep all of my own food), and the GMAT was .. tough. Kudos to any of you who do this with children. I refocused my goals at this point- I let my friends know that I'd be a bit absent, I warned my girlfriend that I might be a bit burned out, and I cut the gym down from 90 minutes to 45-60. I also started taking advantage of my lunch breaks (generally work through them, now I force myself to get away) and refocused my diet to include extra calories/carbs for brain function.

First, the math. 31st percentile was embarrassing. I decided that my weakness was interpreting the question itself, and set out to speak the GMAT language. I went through TWO algebra books, the complete set of Veritas quant, and the complete set of MGMAT quant.

I sat for a Veritas practice exam. Things were clicking. The math felt easy, and the verbal seemed a bit more dry. I was hoping to crack the 600 mark this time. I hit 680. My jaw dropped, I went out for my favorite beer, and posted the OP. I assumed it was a fluke.

2 more weeks later I had finished 2/3rd's of the MGMAT Advanced Quant and was burning out. I decided to take a practice test and just learned that I got some with the MGMAT materials. I came home after work with a bit of extra energy, and figured I'd have a go at it. 590. My good score was a fluke. I was already draining, but this really took the wind out of my sails. I decided I was tired after a long day at work, and decided to try again tomorrow (Saturday).

I went through my morning progressions the next day and decided I felt pretty good. I turned the timer off and decided to aim as high as possible as a motivation boost. 4 draining hours later, I posted a score of 650. It let me know that I had made progress, but it was also not what I had hoped for with unlimited time. At this point, the GMAT and I were not friends. I was slipping. I was back at it the next day.

I started OG13 and finished the PS. I'm about half way through DS now. This took another 4 weeks. I decided that I needed to know where I was, and went back to the source. I woke up this morning and sat for a reset GMAT Prep I, and went back to my instinctual test-taking style (I had forced myself to slow tremendously since the GMAT was tricking me left and right).

Quant: 45, 71st percentile, 8 minutes left
Verbal: 39, 87th percentile, 32 minutes left (lol?)
Total Score: 690

.. that's my story thus far. I think I might actually be able to do this.

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by ShaneK » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:58 am
What the current stance on Idioms?

You'd be proud of me, I'm 100 pages deep in SC.. and hate every minute :)

Any study strategies written specifically for native speakers? (i.e. something that points out all of the things that we do in every day speech that are incorrect, so if testing my ear we don't fall victim to these traps)

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by brianlange77 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:02 pm
ShaneK wrote:What the current stance on Idioms?

You'd be proud of me, I'm 100 pages deep in SC.. and hate every minute :)

Any study strategies written specifically for native speakers? (i.e. something that points out all of the things that we do in every day speech that are incorrect, so if testing my ear we don't fall victim to these traps)
There's a great idioms list in our ManhattanGMAT Sentence Correction guide-book (and others books I am sure as well.) Be careful of random 'idiom lists' on the internet -- just make sure they are legit!

Let me know how studying is going.

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by vomhorizon » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:42 pm
I agree, the idioms list in the MGMAT Guide (SC) is quite exhaustive, at the least you should look to remember the ones that are marked as important (those that show up the most in the OG). If you are a native speaker, then a lot of them would come naturally to you.
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