Basic question - Idiom - so as to vs so that vs enough to

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I went to ShopRite so that I could taste Jalapenos.
I went to ShopRite so as to taste Jalapenos
I went to ShopRite enough to taste Jalapenos ---> [doesnt sound correct to my ear]
It was so cold outside that I had to go inside the shop
It was cold enough for me to go inside the shop. --> [not sure about this one]
It was cold enough so as to lead me to go inside the shop. --> [haha sounds funny to me. I would never use this in my day-to-day conversation :) ha-ha]

I have tried to come up with a few different sentences. Can anyone please help me to understand the difference ? I am lost :(

Thanks
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by cans » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:53 pm
I went to Shoprite to taste Jalapenos.
I went to shopRite so that I could taste Jalapenos
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by sandy217 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:32 am
voodoo_child wrote:I went to ShopRite so that I could taste Jalapenos.
I went to ShopRite so as to taste Jalapenos
I went to ShopRite enough to taste Jalapenos ---> [doesnt sound correct to my ear]
It was so cold outside that I had to go inside the shop
It was cold enough for me to go inside the shop. --> [not sure about this one]
It was cold enough so as to lead me to go inside the shop. --> [haha sounds funny to me. I would never use this in my day-to-day conversation :) ha-ha]

I have tried to come up with a few different sentences. Can anyone please help me to understand the difference ? I am lost :(

Thanks
Voodoo
so <Adj phrase/adjective> that is correct
so<adjiective> as to is correct.

Above two are preferred to "enough ..that" "Enough to" constructions.
And "so as to" is not preferred in GMAT

Hope this helps you.

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by Ashley@VeritasPrep » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:48 am
Hi Voodoo,
I went to ShopRite so that I could taste Jalapenos.
I went to ShopRite so as to taste Jalapenos
I went to ShopRite enough to taste Jalapenos ---> [doesnt sound correct to my ear]
It was so cold outside that I had to go inside the shop
It was cold enough for me to go inside the shop. --> [not sure about this one]
It was cold enough so as to lead me to go inside the shop. --> [haha sounds funny to me. I would never use this in my day-to-day conversation ha-ha]

Yep, your first two sentences work just fine: "so that [subject] can/could/would be able to/will be able to/may/might" can be used interchangeably with "so as to" or "in order to" -- as far as I can think, at least.

"Enough" suggests "to such a degree that..." -- so as you suspected, your third sentence ("I went to ShopRite enough to taste jalapenos") doesn't work. I guess the primary problem with it is that going to ShopRite is something one either does or doesn't do -- there's no variable degree in it. But for example, if you inserted the concept of frequency into the sentence, you'd get in that element of variable degree, since one can do something never, once in a while, semi-frequently, very frequently, all the time, etc. -- there's a whole spectrum. So we certainly COULD say,
I went to ShopRite often enough that the cashiers all knew me by name.
This one
It was cold enough for me to go inside the shop. --> [not sure about this one]
is interesting. I'd say it doesn't *quite* work, though it also wouldn't seem weird if you said it. The thing is, consider these sentences (all acceptable):

It was cold enough that my toes turned blue. / It was so cold that my toes turned blue.
It was cold enough that you could see your breath in the air. / It was so cold that you could...
It was cold enough that the county cancelled school for the day. / It was so cold that the county...

In all those examples, the outcome is something over which you have no control -- you don't get to make a choice in the matter, so from your perspective it's just that the degree of coldness led to these outcomes.

But when you say, "It was cold enough for me to go inside the shop," it's a different situation, in that you got to make a decision with respect to whether to go inside the shop, so it wasn't just a situation where the degree of cold led automatically to your going inside the shop. When there's that element of choice in there, or when the outcome doesn't follow automatically as a result of the degree of cold, then using "for" suggests that some condition has been met that allows you to do (or justifies your doing) something you want -- as though you've been waiting for that justification. For instance, I might say,

"It's warm enough for ice cream" --> I've been wanting ice cream, and I've been waiting for it to get sufficiently warm to justify my getting some.
"It's sunny enough for a picnic" --> Hooray, finally we can have a picnic!
"It's cold enough for a fire" --> We've been freezing and waiting for it to get cold ENOUGH that it justifies our lighting a fire.

But in your example -- "It was cold enough for me to go inside the shop" -- I think the situation is more that it was so cold that you HAD to or decided to go inside the store; it's not that you've been waiting outside wanting and wanting to go inside, and just waiting for some sufficiently cold checkpoint to be hit. So in that case I'd probably say instead "It was so cold that I went inside the shop" or "It was cold enough to drive me inside the shop" or something like that. This is a very subtle distinction, though, one I'm confident you would never have to make on the GMAT.

And finally, you're right that you wouldn't want to say
It was cold enough so as to lead me to go inside the shop. --> [haha sounds funny to me. I would never use this in my day-to-day conversation ha-ha]
The "enough" and the "so as to" form a redundancy in that sentence.

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by vikram4689 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:09 am
Very well articulated.
Quote:
It was cold enough so as to lead me to go inside the shop. --> [haha sounds funny to me. I would never use this in my day-to-day conversation ha-ha]
The "enough" and the "so as to" form a redundancy in that sentence.
Though "enough" and "so as to" are mutually exclusive, i don't think they are redundant actually they change the meaning:
1.It was cold enough to lead me to go inside the shop.
Meaning:It was so cold that i had to go(i took the decision) inside the shop.
2.It was cold so as to lead me to go inside the shop.
Meaning:It was cold ,with the purpose of sending me inside the shop.

Though end result would be same but the meaning changes as to who is actually driving the action.
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by voodoo_child » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:21 pm
@ Ashley - Thanks to your detailed post that I am able to understand the difference between the three options. Now, here's the question from Kaplan that is a bit confusing to me.

Scientists have created a new substance that is so transparent as to be almost invisible.

so transparent as to be
so transparent it has been
so transparent that it was
transparent enough so that it is
transparent enough so as to be

Thanks to your detailed note, it's clear that d and e are redundant. b) is non sensical.

I am not able to decide whether a) or b) is correct. OA is A)
In C) it has a valid (grammatically and logically) antecedent = a new substance.

Similarly, here's another example from Kaplan :


The outgoing councilwoman introduced an ordinance requiring certain manufacturers provide the city with documentation of waste disposal procedures so as to monitor waste disposal in the city's factory district.


provide the city with documentation of waste disposal procedures so as to
provide the city with documentation of waste disposal procedures in order that it
provide the city with documentation of waste disposal procedures and
to provide the city with documentation of waste disposal procedures so as to
to provide the city with documentation of waste disposal procedures so that it can

'requiring to' is a typical idiom that my ear says "yes" :)
now, I am confused between d) and e). Grammatically, I believe that "it" can refer to ordinance or the city. I chose D) but OA is E).

Can you please help ? :(

thanks
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by Ashley@VeritasPrep » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:35 pm
Hi Voodoo,

As to
Scientists have created a new substance that is so transparent as to be almost invisible.

(A) so transparent as to be

(C) so transparent that it was
the problem with (C) is actually just its tense. You're exactly right that the pronoun is not problematic. But since the substance still exists (we know it must, because the sentence begins with a present perfect, so it must somehow apply to the present), we don't want to use the past tense "was." We could certainly say "so transparent that it is almost invisible." So we have to go with (A) (saying (A) is equally good as saying "so transparent that it is almost invisible" would be).

On the next question, good job narrowing it down to (D) and (E).
The outgoing councilwoman introduced an ordinance requiring certain manufacturers provide the city with documentation of waste disposal procedures so as to monitor waste disposal in the city's factory district.

(D) to provide the city with documentation of waste disposal procedures so as to
(E) to provide the city with documentation of waste disposal procedures so that it can
You're right that the "it" is a bit ambiguous grammatically, so ideally there'd be a way to fix that, but (D) has a bigger problem. We definitely need it to be either the councilwoman or the city who monitors these waste disposal procedures, right? (In other words, it's not going to be the manufacturers who do so.) But "to monitor" will line itself up with some other verb in the sentence and consequently also with the agent of that verb -- either "The outgoing councilwoman introduced... so as to monitor" (i.e. so that SHE could monitor), or "requiring certain manufacturers to provide... so as to monitor" (i.e. so that they, the manufacturers, could monitor). That second option doesn't make sense logically, and the first option is impossible because the congresswoman is outgoing (meaning, in this context, that she is leaving office as congresswoman, so she won't be in a position to monitor anything). What makes most sense it that it will be the city that monitors..., but since the city hasn't gotten any verb so far in the sentence, we need to reintroduce it (as we do -- albeit somewhat ambiguously -- in (E)) and then give it the verb "can monitor."

Cheers!
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by voodoo_child » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:37 pm
Hello Ashley,
I have two more questions:


In 1527 King Henry VIII sought to have his marriage to Queen Catherine annulled so as to marry Anne Boleyn.

A ...
B and so could be married to
C to be married to
D so that he could marry
E in order that he would marry

OA = A
Here's my analysis : 3:2 split is Don't care: A and D.

Just by reading this sentence, I was able to infer that d) is correct. {Logically + Mr. Ear says yes}
Grammatically, "so as to" means "in order to" and "so that " means "expectation of some result"
Going by above logic, "so that" fits well.

Congress is debating a bill requiring certain employers provide workers with unpaid leave so as to care for sick or newborn children.
(A) provide workers with unpaid leave so as to
(B) to provide workers with unpaid leave so as to
(C) provide workers with unpaid leave in order that they
(D) to provide workers with unpaid leave so that they can
(E) provide workers with unpaid leave and

OA = D
3:2 split is Don't care: B and D
So as to means "in order to"
so that means "with an expectation of result that"
Hence, D) fits well. I know that "they" is ambiguous and the antecedent can be deduced logically.


Can you please confirm whether;
1) my understanding is correct ?
2) Is there anything else that I am missing in these two questions ?

Appreciate your help :(

thanks
Voodoo

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by Ashley@VeritasPrep » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:55 am
voodoo_child wrote:Hello Ashley,
I have two more questions:


In 1527 King Henry VIII sought to have his marriage to Queen Catherine annulled so as to marry Anne Boleyn.

A ...
B and so could be married to
C to be married to
D so that he could marry
E in order that he would marry

OA = A
Here's my analysis : 3:2 split is Don't care: A and D.

Just by reading this sentence, I was able to infer that d) is correct. {Logically + Mr. Ear says yes}
Grammatically, "so as to" means "in order to" and "so that " means "expectation of some result"
Going by above logic, "so that" fits well.

Congress is debating a bill requiring certain employers provide workers with unpaid leave so as to care for sick or newborn children.
(A) provide workers with unpaid leave so as to
(B) to provide workers with unpaid leave so as to
(C) provide workers with unpaid leave in order that they
(D) to provide workers with unpaid leave so that they can
(E) provide workers with unpaid leave and

OA = D
3:2 split is Don't care: B and D
So as to means "in order to"
so that means "with an expectation of result that"
Hence, D) fits well. I know that "they" is ambiguous and the antecedent can be deduced logically.


Can you please confirm whether;
1) my understanding is correct ?
2) Is there anything else that I am missing in these two questions ?

Appreciate your help :(

thanks
Voodoo
You know, this Henry VIII question got me thinking hard (grammatically, not historically :)), because I knew (A) sounded off to me and (D) sounded much better, but I really couldn't figure out why -- and if what I'd said in my post above was all right, there should be no reason. The solution is that what I said in my last post was not all right -- I will have to revise it!

So, here's the revised deal as I'm rethinking it (and I will edit later if I have to revise again!): "so as to" doesn't actually get to just claim whatever subject was established before it; rather, it takes on an impersonal sense meaning "in such a way as would/will." So, for instance:

I couldn't say He angled the flashlight so as to see more clearly, because this would essentially mean "He angled the flashlight in such a way as would see more clearly," which makes no sense because it doesn't specify who's seeing more clearly. I'd have to say instead He angled the flashlight so as to allow him to see better. This makes sense because it means "He angled the flashlight in such a way as would allow him to see better." I could also change the recipient of the favor: He angled the flashlight so as to allow his daughter to see better. I guess one way to think of it is with this "so as to" construction, it is not our subject "he" who is doing the allowing, but rather the whole clause "he angled the flashlight" (or more specifically, the fact that he angled the flashlight or the way that he angled the flashlight) that's doing it.

So, factoring in this new understanding ("so as to" = "in such a way as would/will"), I now conclude that the sentence "I went to ShopRite so as to taste jalapenos" DOESN'T work, even though it sounded totally okay to me, because technically, it doesn't specify who's doing the tasting, and it just means "I went to ShopRite in such a way as would taste jalapenos," which doesn't make sense. And I also conclude that "King Henry VIII sought to have his marriage to Queen Cathering annulled so as to marry Anne Boleyn" doesn't work, because it just means "...in such a way as would marry Anne Boleyn," which doesn't make sense because in that construction there's no person marrying Anne Boleyn.

If you apply this same reasoning to your second question, (B) gets ruled out for the same reason.

Very good questions, and sorry about the originally faulty explanation!
Last edited by Ashley@VeritasPrep on Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by dv2020 » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:40 pm
voodoo_child wrote:Hello Ashley,
I have two more questions:


In 1527 King Henry VIII sought to have his marriage to Queen Catherine annulled so as to marry Anne Boleyn.

A ...
B and so could be married to
C to be married to
D so that he could marry
E in order that he would marry
This is an OG 12 no. 39 and the Oa is D.Please use official sources don't do injustice to your hardwork by using unsolicited sources. The explanation also says "so as to" is unidiomatic usage in such sentences.

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by voodoo_child » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:44 pm
dv2020 wrote:
voodoo_child wrote:Hello Ashley,
I have two more questions:


In 1527 King Henry VIII sought to have his marriage to Queen Catherine annulled so as to marry Anne Boleyn.

A ...
B and so could be married to
C to be married to
D so that he could marry
E in order that he would marry
This is an OG 12 no. 39 and the Oa is D.Please use official sources don't do injustice to your hardwork by using unsolicited sources. The explanation also says "so as to" is unidiomatic usage in such sentences.
Thanks for pointing it out......that's a BIG typo but if you look at my analysis, I am saying that "so that" wins
OA = A
Here's my analysis : 3:2 split is Don't care: A and D.

Just by reading this sentence, I was able to infer that d) is correct. {Logically + Mr. Ear says yes}
Grammatically, "so as to" means "in order to" and "so that " means "expectation of some result"
Going by above logic, "so that" fits well.

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by dv2020 » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:50 pm
I was surprised after seeing the OA coz i know it's an OG question so there should be no doubt with the OA.

I 'm glad there is no controversy with oa anymore.

Cheers :)

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by vikram4689 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:30 am
Ashley@VeritasPrep wrote:
voodoo_child wrote:Hello Ashley,
I have two more questions:


In 1527 King Henry VIII sought to have his marriage to Queen Catherine annulled so as to marry Anne Boleyn.

A ...
B and so could be married to
C to be married to
D so that he could marry
E in order that he would marry

OA = A
Here's my analysis : 3:2 split is Don't care: A and D.

Just by reading this sentence, I was able to infer that d) is correct. {Logically + Mr. Ear says yes}
Grammatically, "so as to" means "in order to" and "so that " means "expectation of some result"
Going by above logic, "so that" fits well.

Congress is debating a bill requiring certain employers provide workers with unpaid leave so as to care for sick or newborn children.
(A) provide workers with unpaid leave so as to
(B) to provide workers with unpaid leave so as to
(C) provide workers with unpaid leave in order that they
(D) to provide workers with unpaid leave so that they can
(E) provide workers with unpaid leave and

OA = D
3:2 split is Don't care: B and D
So as to means "in order to"
so that means "with an expectation of result that"
Hence, D) fits well. I know that "they" is ambiguous and the antecedent can be deduced logically.


Can you please confirm whether;
1) my understanding is correct ?
2) Is there anything else that I am missing in these two questions ?

Appreciate your help :(

thanks
Voodoo
You know, this Henry VIII question got me thinking hard (grammatically, not historically :)), because I knew (A) sounded off to me and (D) sounded much better, but I really couldn't figure out why -- and if what I'd said in my post above was all right, there should be no reason. The solution is that what I said in my last post was not all right -- I will have to revise it!

So, here's the revised deal as I'm rethinking it (and I will edit later if I have to revise again!): "so as to" doesn't actually get to just claim whatever subject was established before it; rather, it takes on an impersonal sense meaning "in such a way as would/will." So, for instance:

I couldn't say He angled the flashlight so as to see more clearly, because this would essentially mean "He angled the flashlight in such a way as would see more clearly," which makes no sense because it doesn't specify who's seeing more clearly. I'd have to say instead He angled the flashlight so as to allow him to see better. This makes sense because it means "He angled the flashlight in such a way as would allow him to see better." I could also change the recipient of the favor: He angled the flashlight so as to allow his daughter to see better. I guess one way to think of it is with this "so as to" construction, it is not our subject "he" who is doing the allowing, but rather the whole clause "he angled the flashlight" (or more specifically, the fact that he angled the flashlight or the way that he angled the flashlight) that's doing it.

So, factoring in this new understanding ("so as to" = "in such a way as would/will"), I now conclude that the sentence "I went to ShopRite so as to taste jalapenos" DOESN'T work, even though it sounded totally okay to me, because technically, it doesn't specify who's doing the tasting, and it just means "I went to ShopRite in such a way a would taste jalapenos," which doesn't make sense. And I also conclude that "King Henry VIII sought to have his marriage to Queen Cathering annulled so as to marry Anne Boleyn" doesn't work, because it just means "...in such a way as would marry Anne Boleyn," which doesn't make sense because in that construction there's no person marrying Anne Boleyn.

If you apply this same reasoning to your second question, (B) gets ruled out for the same reason.

Very good questions, and sorry about the originally faulty explanation!

Hi Ashley,

With the new definition of "so as to = in such a way that would/will". the first set question does
not make sense

Scientists have created a new substance that is so transparent as to be almost invisible.

so transparent as to be
so transparent it has been
so transparent that it was
transparent enough so that it is
transparent enough so as to be


Please help.
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by Ashley@VeritasPrep » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:07 am
vikram4689 wrote:Hi Ashley,

With the new definition of "so as to = in such a way as would/will". the first set question does
not make sense

Scientists have created a new substance that is so transparent as to be almost invisible.

so transparent as to be
so transparent it has been
so transparent that it was
transparent enough so that it is
transparent enough so as to be
Only one of the answer choices there -- choice E -- has a "so as to," and it doesn't make sense because you wouldn't say "It's transparent enough in such a way as will be almost translucent." The other choices do not have "so as to"s, so it's not valid to try that replacement test. If your question refers to choice (A) -- the correct choice -- that's not a "so as to" but rather a "so [something]" with an "as to" coming later. Notice that the function of "so" is different in such cases as that in option (A): it functions as an adverb modifying (by intensifying) an adjective (in this case, "transparent"). In constructions that literally say "so as to," it has no such function. Does this address your question?
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by vikram4689 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:01 pm
Yes that does answer to an extent. Actually what i do now is that i replace "so as to" with "in such a way that will/would" and see if the sentence makes sense or not. Please confirm if i am right till here.

Now i would like to know how do i check the viability of options that contains "so X as to Y". Is there anything (like above rule) with which i can check this construction.
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