Hi all,
Glad to have found this GMAT forum, it's good to know that other people are dealing with the same stuff as you do
I just finished the 250 questions of the OG in problem solving and I was just wondering: do you find these problems in line with the overall difficulty of PS problems in GMATprep tests, for instance ? I wonder if they're not a little easier. I "scored" 227/250 in total and the overwhelming majority of my mistakes were stupid ones (arithmetic mistakes mainly). There are only a very few problems which I didn't know how to handle when I saw them (around 3 or 4 problems in the 250 for which I had to guess) and I thought that this was happening a little more often in the practice tests I took so far.
Any feedback welcome and best of luck to everyone!
Piren
Math/PS in the OG : in line with real GMAT difficulty ?
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Great performance on those OG questions, Piren!piren wrote:Hi all,
Glad to have found this GMAT forum, it's good to know that other people are dealing with the same stuff as you do
I just finished the 250 questions of the OG in problem solving and I was just wondering: do you find these problems in line with the overall difficulty of PS problems in GMATprep tests, for instance ? I wonder if they're not a little easier. I "scored" 227/250 in total and the overwhelming majority of my mistakes were stupid ones (arithmetic mistakes mainly). There are only a very few problems which I didn't know how to handle when I saw them (around 3 or 4 problems in the 250 for which I had to guess) and I thought that this was happening a little more often in the practice tests I took so far.
Any feedback welcome and best of luck to everyone!
Piren
When I took the GMAT last summer, I found the math problems on the actual GMAT in line with the medium/difficult questions found on OG.
With your high quant hit rate, I think you are in good shape (in terms of math) for your actual test.
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I quote this from one of GMAT forums
" 750 is the threshold for the 99th percentile and the GMAT does not award that distinction to specialists (people who do extraordinarily well on only one section of the exam). At that level, you need to excel in both sections. So, although last week we discussed how the verbal section can pick up the slack from a weaker quant performance, if your sights are set on 750+, you need to be in top form in both areas.
Your overall score out of 800 results from your performances in quant and verbal, each of which is first scored independently on a scale of 0-60. These subscores are then combined to yield your overall score according to formulae to which only ETS (the organization that administers the GMAT) is privy. Each subscore (verbal and quant) receives a percentile ranking as well. This indicates the percentage of test-takers who scored below your level over the past few years. So, for example, if you receive a verbal subscore of 40, you are in the 90th percentile, which means that 90% of all test-takers did not perform as well as you in verbal.
Some recent scores of 750 broke down as follows: 41V/51Q, 46V/47Q, 44V/49Q, 45V/48Q, 47V/47Q. Notice that both sections are strong. Some recent scores of 760 broke down as follows: 51V/46Q, 42V/50Q, 46V/48Q, 44V/50Q. Again, these test-takers posted excellent subscores. To break 750, you more or less need to reach at least the 84th percentile in quant (subscore 46) and the 90th in verbal (subscore 40). While a significant number of test-takers can reach one or the other of these goals, very few can reach both on the same exam. Hence the reward of 99th percentile status to those who can.
How do you get there? By understanding how the exam changes at its highest levels. At the 750+ level, you will no longer be tested on the basics; by the time you start seeing 750-level questions, you will already have proven to the CAT that you have mastered the fundamentals and are ready for the tough stuff. So the CAT will try to gauge your level by taking the same concepts you would see at the 650 level and "gussying" them up. In quant, it is now more about logic than about calculation. Did you spot the pattern hidden in the numbers? Did you spot the hidden equations? In verbal, you will need to resolve subtle flaws of logic and grammar. The issues no longer announce themselves; you have to seek them out. The 750+ exam is for active test-takers. If you sit back and let the exam wash over you, chances are you will not break 750. "
If I am not wrong , I believe that this piece of information signifies that to break into beyond 750 barrier, we need to have a lil higher bit of expertise in Quant and Verbal than the one thats present in OG-11.
Correct me if I am wrong.
" 750 is the threshold for the 99th percentile and the GMAT does not award that distinction to specialists (people who do extraordinarily well on only one section of the exam). At that level, you need to excel in both sections. So, although last week we discussed how the verbal section can pick up the slack from a weaker quant performance, if your sights are set on 750+, you need to be in top form in both areas.
Your overall score out of 800 results from your performances in quant and verbal, each of which is first scored independently on a scale of 0-60. These subscores are then combined to yield your overall score according to formulae to which only ETS (the organization that administers the GMAT) is privy. Each subscore (verbal and quant) receives a percentile ranking as well. This indicates the percentage of test-takers who scored below your level over the past few years. So, for example, if you receive a verbal subscore of 40, you are in the 90th percentile, which means that 90% of all test-takers did not perform as well as you in verbal.
Some recent scores of 750 broke down as follows: 41V/51Q, 46V/47Q, 44V/49Q, 45V/48Q, 47V/47Q. Notice that both sections are strong. Some recent scores of 760 broke down as follows: 51V/46Q, 42V/50Q, 46V/48Q, 44V/50Q. Again, these test-takers posted excellent subscores. To break 750, you more or less need to reach at least the 84th percentile in quant (subscore 46) and the 90th in verbal (subscore 40). While a significant number of test-takers can reach one or the other of these goals, very few can reach both on the same exam. Hence the reward of 99th percentile status to those who can.
How do you get there? By understanding how the exam changes at its highest levels. At the 750+ level, you will no longer be tested on the basics; by the time you start seeing 750-level questions, you will already have proven to the CAT that you have mastered the fundamentals and are ready for the tough stuff. So the CAT will try to gauge your level by taking the same concepts you would see at the 650 level and "gussying" them up. In quant, it is now more about logic than about calculation. Did you spot the pattern hidden in the numbers? Did you spot the hidden equations? In verbal, you will need to resolve subtle flaws of logic and grammar. The issues no longer announce themselves; you have to seek them out. The 750+ exam is for active test-takers. If you sit back and let the exam wash over you, chances are you will not break 750. "
If I am not wrong , I believe that this piece of information signifies that to break into beyond 750 barrier, we need to have a lil higher bit of expertise in Quant and Verbal than the one thats present in OG-11.
Correct me if I am wrong.
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Hi krishnakanthpps:
Thanks very much for sharing this post.
What you said sounds about right. To get a 750+ score, you should expect the real GMAT to test questions that resemble the difficult bin questions in OG, as well as questions that are slightly harder than those difficult OG questions.
Thanks very much for sharing this post.
What you said sounds about right. To get a 750+ score, you should expect the real GMAT to test questions that resemble the difficult bin questions in OG, as well as questions that are slightly harder than those difficult OG questions.
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Going further with my OG preparation ...
I just finished today the DS part (155 questions) and scored 133/150. Similar percentages for the other sections I have already reviewed (90/100 in CR - 21/26 in RC).
Hence my question is : is there any way of "predicting" GMAT scores by seeing what % of questions in the OG you score right ?
Cheers
I just finished today the DS part (155 questions) and scored 133/150. Similar percentages for the other sections I have already reviewed (90/100 in CR - 21/26 in RC).
Hence my question is : is there any way of "predicting" GMAT scores by seeing what % of questions in the OG you score right ?
Cheers
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Hi piren:piren wrote:Going further with my OG preparation ...
I just finished today the DS part (155 questions) and scored 133/150. Similar percentages for the other sections I have already reviewed (90/100 in CR - 21/26 in RC).
Hence my question is : is there any way of "predicting" GMAT scores by seeing what % of questions in the OG you score right ?
Cheers
There isn't an accurate way to predict your GMAT score based off of your OG performance. I will say this, however: anecdotally, I've noticed that people who end up scoring 700+ on their real GMAT often report a hit rate of 90%+ in their OG. Just an observation from the limited data I've seen.
Best of luck!
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Hi Guys thanks for the info, I think this has answered most of my questions that I posted in another thread. I will re-post my original thread just to revive discussion/get some new opinion and maybe get some on issues 2 &3 with respect to a score over 700 and not necessarily over 750. Also any suggestions on where to find more difficult questions of the 700+ level if OG is not sufficient?
"Hi all,
This is my first post and still a bit unfamiliar with the website so please bear with me if this has been discussed elsewhere and I will move the discussion. I would be greatly appreciative if anyone could address any aspects of the following questions:
1. I have heard from a number of sources that the level of difficulty of the questions in the OG is not as high as those one would encounter in order to achieve 700+ level score in the actual test. (Specifically that the most difficult questions in each section are more in line with a 650-670 level score). Can anyone who has achieved a 700+ level score as well as worked through the OG varify this? And if this is the case where would be the the best resource to "top-up" my preperation with more difficult questions that most closely mimic the actual GMAT questions and dont just add difficult but untested areas of study?
2. To my mind, the logic of the GMAT scoring algorithm would mean that one should be getting a 50% hit rate on questions that are at the level of the score you "should" obtain. I know this is an oversimplification, but in general does this mean that if I have been scoring say 90% in the hardest questions of each section of the OG that I should score above a 650-670 in the actual test (assuming this difficulty level is true of the OG)?
3. Lastly, I have found that the question difficulty in the OG does not seem to vary greatly between the "easiest" questions and the "hardest" questions especially in the verbal sections. For example for both the SC and RC sections I averaged approximately 90% for the first half of the question bank and about 95% for the second. I realise part of the reason for this may be that I had picked up on a few extra tricks during the process but I can still say that I did not notice a substantial difference in the level of difficulty. Would anone know if this would also be true of the difference between a "650" level question and a "750" level question, or beyond 700 would qustions get substantially more difficult? Can any one who has achieved a 700+ and worked through the official guide indicate approximately what your "hit rate" was in each section of the OG and how many questions you would estimate you missed in the each section of the actual test?
Thank you in advance, I would greatly appreciate any advice!
ps. I am writing on the 29/05/2009, good luck to all others writing soon!"
"Hi all,
This is my first post and still a bit unfamiliar with the website so please bear with me if this has been discussed elsewhere and I will move the discussion. I would be greatly appreciative if anyone could address any aspects of the following questions:
1. I have heard from a number of sources that the level of difficulty of the questions in the OG is not as high as those one would encounter in order to achieve 700+ level score in the actual test. (Specifically that the most difficult questions in each section are more in line with a 650-670 level score). Can anyone who has achieved a 700+ level score as well as worked through the OG varify this? And if this is the case where would be the the best resource to "top-up" my preperation with more difficult questions that most closely mimic the actual GMAT questions and dont just add difficult but untested areas of study?
2. To my mind, the logic of the GMAT scoring algorithm would mean that one should be getting a 50% hit rate on questions that are at the level of the score you "should" obtain. I know this is an oversimplification, but in general does this mean that if I have been scoring say 90% in the hardest questions of each section of the OG that I should score above a 650-670 in the actual test (assuming this difficulty level is true of the OG)?
3. Lastly, I have found that the question difficulty in the OG does not seem to vary greatly between the "easiest" questions and the "hardest" questions especially in the verbal sections. For example for both the SC and RC sections I averaged approximately 90% for the first half of the question bank and about 95% for the second. I realise part of the reason for this may be that I had picked up on a few extra tricks during the process but I can still say that I did not notice a substantial difference in the level of difficulty. Would anone know if this would also be true of the difference between a "650" level question and a "750" level question, or beyond 700 would qustions get substantially more difficult? Can any one who has achieved a 700+ and worked through the official guide indicate approximately what your "hit rate" was in each section of the OG and how many questions you would estimate you missed in the each section of the actual test?
Thank you in advance, I would greatly appreciate any advice!
ps. I am writing on the 29/05/2009, good luck to all others writing soon!"
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I'd agree that's true of OG11. The 12th edition of the Official Guide does seem much more representative of the current test to me, despite what you might read in some company reviews of the book. Just to take one example (from the middle of the book, no less), a question like no. 110 in the PS section of OG12 tests prime factorization in a much more advanced way than any question in OG11. And the DS section of the book in particular is much more up to date.Ferret1 wrote:
1. I have heard from a number of sources that the level of difficulty of the questions in the OG is not as high as those one would encounter in order to achieve 700+ level score in the actual test.
Still, the questions in the book span all difficulty levels, and to see a lot of realistic high level questions, you'd do well to exhaust the supply available in the GMATPrep software, which certainly contains many very challenging questions and which will give you a very good idea of what to expect on the real test. For additional math questions, you may want to consult GMATFocus, though many GMATFocus questions appear in OG12 as well, and I don't know yet if these questions have been removed from the GMATFocus database. If there's a lot of overlap, GMATFocus may be less valuable now than it used to be - something I'll look into soon.
Note also that the diagnostic test at the beginning of the OG (which is unchanged in the 12th edition) contains some of the hardest problems in the book, so is useful if you need some challenging material.
That is an oversimplification, though it's repeated in a lot of test prep materials. The 50% threshold is only used in 'free response' tests - that is, tests which don't offer answer choices. On the GMAT, with five available answer choices, the algorithm takes into account the possibility of guessing correctly.Ferret1 wrote: 2. To my mind, the logic of the GMAT scoring algorithm would mean that one should be getting a 50% hit rate on questions that are at the level of the score you "should" obtain. I know this is an oversimplification, but in general does this mean that if I have been scoring say 90% in the hardest questions of each section of the OG that I should score above a 650-670 in the actual test (assuming this difficulty level is true of the OG)?
The technical details, which you don't really need to know: on many questions, where ruling out wrong answers is likely going to be difficult for the weakest test takers, the probability of guessing correctly is going to be 20% (the probability of correctly answering if guessing randomly). I'd think question 110 in the PS section of OG12 is one such question; a low level test taker won't have any criteria to use if guessing on that question. You need to get more than 60% of such questions right, not 50%, to convince the test you're above the level of such questions.
That said, some questions will have a 'guessing probability' which is higher than 20%. Looking, for example, at question 12 in the DS section of the new OG, the question asks about i+j, and Statement 1 doesn't give any information about j. I can't imagine anyone guessing A or D for such a question, and C also seems unlikely, so the 'guessing value' for this question is likely to be somewhere between 33% and 50%. On these kinds of questions, to persuade the test that you can handle their difficulty level, you'd need to answer with an accuracy above 67-75% (depending on the 'guessing value').
When the GMAT administers experimental questions, one of the statistics they compute for each question is this guessing value (called the 'pseudo-guessing parameter'), which represents how well the weakest test takers answer the question.
Long story short, you need a hit rate quite a bit higher than 50% on questions of a certain level to persuade the test that you're above that level, and the exact percentage depends on the question. If you do have a 90% hit rate on the questions at the end of the OG, you're still certainly well above the required threshold, however - that's an excellent performance. Still, to get a realistic score estimate, take a GMATPrep test; it's hard to judge from hit rates on the OG.
I'd be very surprised if the difficulty level of real GMAT Verbal questions was as varied as of Quant questions, though of course the only people who would know that for certain are the test developers. This does make the Verbal scoring less forgiving of mistakes; you can make several mistakes on the Quant and still get a scaled score in the 47-50 range, but one mistake on the Verbal will lower your score to 49 or 50, and two mistakes will lower your score to 47 or 48, at least judging by GMATPrep results.Ferret1 wrote: 3. Lastly, I have found that the question difficulty in the OG does not seem to vary greatly between the "easiest" questions and the "hardest" questions especially in the verbal sections. For example for both the SC and RC sections I averaged approximately 90% for the first half of the question bank and about 95% for the second. I realise part of the reason for this may be that I had picked up on a few extra tricks during the process but I can still say that I did not notice a substantial difference in the level of difficulty. Would anone know if this would also be true of the difference between a "650" level question and a "750" level question, or beyond 700 would qustions get substantially more difficult? Can any one who has achieved a 700+ and worked through the official guide indicate approximately what your "hit rate" was in each section of the OG and how many questions you would estimate you missed in the each section of the actual test?
I do think GMATPrep gives a very good indication of the style of question you'll encounter on the real test, though on my most recent GMAT late last year, I did encounter a small number of questions which did seem substantially more difficult than any I had encountered in GMAT prep materials - one heavily academic RC passage full of definitions of new terms, which went on to draw conclusions about these newly defined phrases; a couple of SC questions with two answers which were grammatically correct, and where the correct answer would certainly have been that which changed the original meaning least; and one CR question I found ambiguous, since it wasn't clear from the stem whether certain information presented was an assumption of the author, or a fact. Still, if you do well on GMATPrep, you can be confident of a strong performance on the real thing.
Good luck!
For online GMAT math tutoring, or to buy my higher-level Quant books and problem sets, contact me at ianstewartgmat at gmail.com
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In my opinion,
I need to have a good pacing. Almost all Quans can be done in roughly 90sec and mentally. I may use at most a side of a A4 paper for the complete Q section. If this does not happen then that I means I am not confident or not knowing the right concept/strategy that GMAT expects me to use.
In SC, if I can categorize (one of the 8 categories listed in OG) the issue being tested and most of the questions test 2 mistakes. Taking this as a clue, I should zonk through the SC questions within a minute each and answer each with such a confidence as that of PS / DS. In CR, some mapping on paper may be needed to save mistakes due to interpretation from memory. Use no more than 2 min. In RC engage yourself intellectually / emotionally spending 3 - 4minutes and the following 3 questions will be over in 2min. It is highly proabble to get a good hit rate in SC and CR and so at times of crisis, answer an RC kinda randomly and bet on SC/CR.
Any opinions welcome.
I need to have a good pacing. Almost all Quans can be done in roughly 90sec and mentally. I may use at most a side of a A4 paper for the complete Q section. If this does not happen then that I means I am not confident or not knowing the right concept/strategy that GMAT expects me to use.
In SC, if I can categorize (one of the 8 categories listed in OG) the issue being tested and most of the questions test 2 mistakes. Taking this as a clue, I should zonk through the SC questions within a minute each and answer each with such a confidence as that of PS / DS. In CR, some mapping on paper may be needed to save mistakes due to interpretation from memory. Use no more than 2 min. In RC engage yourself intellectually / emotionally spending 3 - 4minutes and the following 3 questions will be over in 2min. It is highly proabble to get a good hit rate in SC and CR and so at times of crisis, answer an RC kinda randomly and bet on SC/CR.
Any opinions welcome.
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There seems to be some significant differences between the OG 11th and 12th editions.
At the beginning of April, I picked up the OG 11th edition and started to work through the book. I had finished the PS, and some of the DS section in the first week. It was only then, that I noticed the entire last section of the book was misprinted. When I went to exchange the book, I noticed the 12th edition was out, so I exchanged my defective 11th edition for a 12th edition.
I noticed that the PS seems to have about 25% or so new problems and the new questions are significantly more challenging than the old problems. The DS section was significantly revised, or at least it seems that way to me. In the 11th edition I could "eyeball" quite a few of the DS questions but in the 12th edition I have to write out a basic equation to grasp what the question is asking.
My math is pretty good, but I have a friend who is an engineer and he just (March 2009) got a 460! He has an Engineering degree, worked at a few start up companies in Silicon Valley and now works for a major consulting firm. Now I am a bit worried, is the math on the GMAT - that challenging?
At the beginning of April, I picked up the OG 11th edition and started to work through the book. I had finished the PS, and some of the DS section in the first week. It was only then, that I noticed the entire last section of the book was misprinted. When I went to exchange the book, I noticed the 12th edition was out, so I exchanged my defective 11th edition for a 12th edition.
I noticed that the PS seems to have about 25% or so new problems and the new questions are significantly more challenging than the old problems. The DS section was significantly revised, or at least it seems that way to me. In the 11th edition I could "eyeball" quite a few of the DS questions but in the 12th edition I have to write out a basic equation to grasp what the question is asking.
My math is pretty good, but I have a friend who is an engineer and he just (March 2009) got a 460! He has an Engineering degree, worked at a few start up companies in Silicon Valley and now works for a major consulting firm. Now I am a bit worried, is the math on the GMAT - that challenging?
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I'm an electrical engineer and I just took the test last weekend. I only got a 43 on my quant (37 on V for a 650). I fully plan on retaking the test myself to correct this problem. I have heard some stories on other message boards that say the math portion has increased in difficulty starting last January to compensate for some cheating fiasco. I know from my practice GMAT exams I had scored a 48Q/38V and a 49Q/37V, so I think this may be the case. The problems I was getting on the quant section were about the same difficulty as the questions on my 48/49 practice test quant sections. Have anyone else heard anything like this, or is it people just complaining?bynddrvn wrote:There seems to be some significant differences between the OG 11th and 12th editions.
At the beginning of April, I picked up the OG 11th edition and started to work through the book. I had finished the PS, and some of the DS section in the first week. It was only then, that I noticed the entire last section of the book was misprinted. When I went to exchange the book, I noticed the 12th edition was out, so I exchanged my defective 11th edition for a 12th edition.
I noticed that the PS seems to have about 25% or so new problems and the new questions are significantly more challenging than the old problems. The DS section was significantly revised, or at least it seems that way to me. In the 11th edition I could "eyeball" quite a few of the DS questions but in the 12th edition I have to write out a basic equation to grasp what the question is asking.
My math is pretty good, but I have a friend who is an engineer and he just (March 2009) got a 460! He has an Engineering degree, worked at a few start up companies in Silicon Valley and now works for a major consulting firm. Now I am a bit worried, is the math on the GMAT - that challenging?
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how many of your quant problems were at that level?wccotton wrote:The problems I was getting on the quant section were about the same difficulty as the questions on my 48/49 practice test quant sections.
one outstanding feature of human memory is that we tend to overemphasize extreme events, so you may have only had a couple, or a few, questions at that sort of level.
if this is the case, then the super-hard questions you saw may well have been experimental problems. don't forget that about 25-30% of the problems on the quant section are experimental.
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in any case, it's not much good thinking about the "difficulty level" of the questions while you're taking the test.
number one, it doesn't matter anyway, since you're going to see the same questions (and be able to answer them, or not, as the case may be) whether you can accurately judge their difficulty level or not.
number two, unless you actually make your living in this little game called standardized testing, you will not be able to judge the difficulty level of problems accurately, beyond extremely vague ballpark figures.
number three, there are lots of experimental questions, so, even if you are able to judge the difficulty level of problems accurately (which would be unprecedented for a non-professional), you still couldn't tell whether the questions counted or not.
number four, and most important, thinking about "difficulty level" WILL cause you to (a) stress out and (b) waste time during the exam. don't do it.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.
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