Welcome! Check out our free B-School Guides to learn how you compare with other applicants.
Login or Register
 

Though he had - MGMAT SC

This topic has 5 expert replies and 17 member replies
Goto page
  • 1,
  • 2
Next
Bookmark
Previous Topic Next Topic
mehravikas GMAT Titan Default Avatar
Joined
12 May 2008
Posted:
1163 messages
Followed by:
1 members
Thanked:
21 times
Test Date:
********
Target GMAT Score:
740
Though he had - MGMAT SC Post Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:00 pm
Elapsed Time: 00:00
  • Lap #[LAPCOUNT] ([LAPTIME])
    Though he had had success broadcasting his controversial radio program on highly regulated terrestrial airwaves, Howard Stern opted out of terrestrial broadcasting in favor of the less regulated satellite radio medium.

    a. Though he had had
    b. Though he has had
    c. Even though he had
    d. Having had
    e. Having achieved

    OA: A
    Source: MGMAT Practice Exams
    Doubt: Why do we need had had, what is the difference between using had had and had. Is it past perfect vs simple past?

    Need free GMAT or MBA advice from an expert? Register for Beat The GMAT now and post your question in these forums!
    capnx Really wants to Beat The GMAT! Default Avatar
    Joined
    15 Aug 2009
    Posted:
    268 messages
    Followed by:
    1 members
    Thanked:
    19 times
    Target GMAT Score:
    750
    GMAT Score:
    700
    Post Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:16 pm
    there's a little discussion here:
    http://gmatclub.com/forum/howard-stern-mgmat-82346.html

    He had success. past tense (had used as a real verb)
    He had had success. past perfet (1st had, helping verb, indicating perfect tense; 2nd had, real verb, to possess, to hold, to own...)
    it sounds awkward because it's not used this way often, but there's no real grammar mistake in A

    siddharth rastogi Rising GMAT Star Default Avatar
    Joined
    16 Aug 2009
    Posted:
    66 messages
    Thanked:
    2 times
    Post Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:03 am
    But i think c should be the answer
    as, howard must have opted for terestrial brodcasting first and then got success in broadcasting his controversial programe...............

    so, the sequese should be ( opted)in pastperfect and ( success) in simple past...........

    mehravikas GMAT Titan Default Avatar
    Joined
    12 May 2008
    Posted:
    1163 messages
    Followed by:
    1 members
    Thanked:
    21 times
    Test Date:
    ********
    Target GMAT Score:
    740
    Post Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:19 am
    Thanks but that raises more doubts Sad

    Why do we need "had" for simple past?

    According to me the examples of simple past and past perfect would be:

    1. In 1976, 60% of families were couples with children. - Simple past
    2. By 1996, this had fallen to 51%. - Past perfect

    Do we really need "By 1996, this had had fallen to 51%."???? for past perfect?

    Please explain.

    capnx wrote:
    there's a little discussion here:
    http://gmatclub.com/forum/howard-stern-mgmat-82346.html

    He had success. past tense (had used as a real verb)
    He had had success. past perfet (1st had, helping verb, indicating perfect tense; 2nd had, real verb, to possess, to hold, to own...)
    it sounds awkward because it's not used this way often, but there's no real grammar mistake in A

    GMAT/MBA Expert

    lunarpower GMAT Instructor
    Joined
    03 Mar 2008
    Posted:
    2975 messages
    Followed by:
    1048 members
    Thanked:
    1729 times
    GMAT Score:
    800
    Most Active Expert Most Responsive Expert Most Thanked Expert
    Post Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:50 am
    Quote:
    1. In 1976, 60% of families were couples with children. - Simple past
    2. By 1996, this had fallen to 51%. - Past perfect
    this is correct.

    --

    i feel your pain here, because you're confusing two completely different uses of the word "had".

    one use of "had" is the PAST TENSE of the infinitive "TO HAVE". (let's call this "had1")
    this is like other past tenses, such as "was", "chose", "ran", "threw".

    another is the PAST PARTICIPLE of the infinitive "TO HAVE". (let's call this "had2")
    this is like other past participles, such as "been", "chosen", "run", "thrown".

    the other is as a HELPING VERB that appears in the PAST PERFECT. (let's call this "had3")

    here's how "to have" is conjugated:
    present: he has the flu.
    past: he had the flu. (this is had1)
    past perfect: he had had the flu. (this is had3 had2)

    analogy: some other random verb, such as "to choose"
    present: he chooses the steak entree.
    past: he chose the steak entree.
    past perfect: he had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3)

    the difficulty here lies in not confusing the different "had"s.

    hope that helps

    _________________
    Ron is a Director of Curriculum Development at Manhattan GMAT. He has been teaching various standardized tests for almost 20 years.

    He wears white after Labor Day, gets 55% of his calories from protein, and takes standardized tests for fun.

    Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron o en inglés o en español.

    If you send Ron a private message, please allow 1-2 weeks for a response.

    Learn more about ron

    Thanked by: loveusonu, pavitkumar, sachindia, jainpiyushjain
    Free Manhattan GMAT online events - The first class of every online Manhattan GMAT course is free. Classes start every week.
    mehravikas GMAT Titan Default Avatar
    Joined
    12 May 2008
    Posted:
    1163 messages
    Followed by:
    1 members
    Thanked:
    21 times
    Test Date:
    ********
    Target GMAT Score:
    740
    Post Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:39 am
    Does that mean we never need had had such a sentence:

    he had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3)
    he had had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3) - incorrect

    but it would correct to say - he had had a steak entree

    Phewwwwwww..Shocked

    [quote="lunarpower"]
    Quote:
    --

    i feel your pain here, because you're confusing two completely different uses of the word "had".

    one use of "had" is the PAST TENSE of the infinitive "TO HAVE". (let's call this "had1")
    this is like other past tenses, such as "was", "chose", "ran", "threw".

    another is the PAST PARTICIPLE of the infinitive "TO HAVE". (let's call this "had2")
    this is like other past participles, such as "been", "chosen", "run", "thrown".

    the other is as a HELPING VERB that appears in the PAST PERFECT. (let's call this "had3")

    here's how "to have" is conjugated:
    present: he has the flu.
    past: he had the flu. (this is had1)
    past perfect: he had had the flu. (this is had3 had2)

    analogy: some other random verb, such as "to choose"
    present: he chooses the steak entree.
    past: he chose the steak entree.
    past perfect: he had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3)

    the difficulty here lies in not confusing the different "had"s.

    hope that helps
    Shocked Shocked

    GMAT/MBA Expert

    lunarpower GMAT Instructor
    Joined
    03 Mar 2008
    Posted:
    2975 messages
    Followed by:
    1048 members
    Thanked:
    1729 times
    GMAT Score:
    800
    Most Active Expert Most Responsive Expert Most Thanked Expert
    Post Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:42 am
    mehravikas wrote:
    Does that mean we never need had had such a sentence:

    he had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3)
    he had had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3) - incorrect

    but it would correct to say - he had had a steak entree
    all correct.

    note that "had had success" and "had had a steak entree" are ok, because "success" and "steak entree" are NOUNS.

    you can't have had3 + had2 + chosen, because then you have 2 past participles in a row. that's not allowed.

    _________________
    Ron is a Director of Curriculum Development at Manhattan GMAT. He has been teaching various standardized tests for almost 20 years.

    He wears white after Labor Day, gets 55% of his calories from protein, and takes standardized tests for fun.

    Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron o en inglés o en español.

    If you send Ron a private message, please allow 1-2 weeks for a response.

    Learn more about ron

    Free Manhattan GMAT online events - The first class of every online Manhattan GMAT course is free. Classes start every week.
    mehravikas GMAT Titan Default Avatar
    Joined
    12 May 2008
    Posted:
    1163 messages
    Followed by:
    1 members
    Thanked:
    21 times
    Test Date:
    ********
    Target GMAT Score:
    740
    Post Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:53 am
    Thanks heaps Ron.

    Would you be able to give an official prep or MGMAT CAT problem which has an example of had had (apart from the one posted in this forum). I have come across "had had" problem for the first time. Just want to go through 1-2 more problems. It's difficult to find such sentence correction questions.

    lunarpower wrote:
    mehravikas wrote:
    Does that mean we never need had had such a sentence:

    he had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3)
    he had had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3) - incorrect

    but it would correct to say - he had had a steak entree
    all correct.

    note that "had had success" and "had had a steak entree" are ok, because "success" and "steak entree" are NOUNS.

    you can't have had3 + had2 + chosen, because then you have 2 past participles in a row. that's not allowed.

    siddharth rastogi Rising GMAT Star Default Avatar
    Joined
    16 Aug 2009
    Posted:
    66 messages
    Thanked:
    2 times
    Post Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:26 am
    THANKS a lot RON,
    for such a wonderful explanation.

    Can u please give the answer of the following question, as i think the OA- A is wrong, because in my opinion the action 1( opted out of terrestrial broadcasting........) is the previous one and

    action 2 (he had success in broad casting...) is done after opting out terrestrial broad casting.

    so, ans should be C




    Though he had had success broadcasting his controversial radio program on highly regulated terrestrial airwaves, Howard Stern opted out of terrestrial broadcasting in favor of the less regulated satellite radio medium.

    a. Though he had had
    b. Though he has had
    c. Even though he had
    d. Having had
    e. Having achieved

    GMAT/MBA Expert

    lunarpower GMAT Instructor
    Joined
    03 Mar 2008
    Posted:
    2975 messages
    Followed by:
    1048 members
    Thanked:
    1729 times
    GMAT Score:
    800
    Most Active Expert Most Responsive Expert Most Thanked Expert
    Post Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:45 pm
    siddharth rastogi wrote:
    THANKS a lot RON,
    for such a wonderful explanation.

    Can u please give the answer of the following question, as i think the OA- A is wrong, because in my opinion the action 1( opted out of terrestrial broadcasting........) is the previous one and

    action 2 (he had success in broad casting...) is done after opting out terrestrial broad casting.
    nope. action 2 comes first, and its termination is precisely at the moment of action 1. this is the perfect setup for the past perfect.

    note that action 2 is "had had success in broadcasting on terrestrial airwaves".
    action 1 is "opted out of terrestrial broadcasting".

    you probably just didn't notice the highlighted part of #2. if you notice that, it should be clear why this must precede #1.

    _________________
    Ron is a Director of Curriculum Development at Manhattan GMAT. He has been teaching various standardized tests for almost 20 years.

    He wears white after Labor Day, gets 55% of his calories from protein, and takes standardized tests for fun.

    Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron o en inglés o en español.

    If you send Ron a private message, please allow 1-2 weeks for a response.

    Learn more about ron

    Free Manhattan GMAT online events - The first class of every online Manhattan GMAT course is free. Classes start every week.

    GMAT/MBA Expert

    lunarpower GMAT Instructor
    Joined
    03 Mar 2008
    Posted:
    2975 messages
    Followed by:
    1048 members
    Thanked:
    1729 times
    GMAT Score:
    800
    Most Active Expert Most Responsive Expert Most Thanked Expert
    Post Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:52 pm
    mehravikas wrote:
    Thanks heaps Ron.

    Would you be able to give an official prep or MGMAT CAT problem which has an example of had had (apart from the one posted in this forum). I have come across "had had" problem for the first time. Just want to go through 1-2 more problems. It's difficult to find such sentence correction questions.
    there aren't any others in our tests, as far as i know. we try not to overdo things; every question that repeats a topic is a question that precludes the appearance of another topic.

    in any case:

    if this is too confusing, then try replacing "had" (not the helping verb, but the participle or past tense) with some synonym.
    depending on the context, this could be "owned", "achieved", "experienced", etc.

    here "had" is being used in the context of success, so "achieved" is probably the best substitution.
    so, in this problem, choice (a) would be "had achieved", (b) would be "has achieved", (c) just "achieved", etc. ironically, it would render choices (d) and (e) identical, throwing them both into doubt.
    (note that (d) and (e) are perfectly correct grammatically; they just don't make sense from a logical standpoint, as they seem to present a concordance where there should be a contrast.)

    this will probably do wonders as far as making the point more clear.

    --

    on a lighter note:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_while_John_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_a_better_effect_on_the_teacher

    _________________
    Ron is a Director of Curriculum Development at Manhattan GMAT. He has been teaching various standardized tests for almost 20 years.

    He wears white after Labor Day, gets 55% of his calories from protein, and takes standardized tests for fun.

    Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron o en inglés o en español.

    If you send Ron a private message, please allow 1-2 weeks for a response.

    Learn more about ron

    Free Manhattan GMAT online events - The first class of every online Manhattan GMAT course is free. Classes start every week.
    mehravikas GMAT Titan Default Avatar
    Joined
    12 May 2008
    Posted:
    1163 messages
    Followed by:
    1 members
    Thanked:
    21 times
    Test Date:
    ********
    Target GMAT Score:
    740
    Post Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:28 pm
    Wow Smile
    lunarpower wrote:
    mehravikas wrote:
    Thanks heaps Ron.

    Would you be able to give an official prep or MGMAT CAT problem which has an example of had had (apart from the one posted in this forum). I have come across "had had" problem for the first time. Just want to go through 1-2 more problems. It's difficult to find such sentence correction questions.
    there aren't any others in our tests, as far as i know. we try not to overdo things; every question that repeats a topic is a question that precludes the appearance of another topic.

    in any case:

    if this is too confusing, then try replacing "had" (not the helping verb, but the participle or past tense) with some synonym.
    depending on the context, this could be "owned", "achieved", "experienced", etc.

    here "had" is being used in the context of success, so "achieved" is probably the best substitution.
    so, in this problem, choice (a) would be "had achieved", (b) would be "has achieved", (c) just "achieved", etc. ironically, it would render choices (d) and (e) identical, throwing them both into doubt.
    (note that (d) and (e) are perfectly correct grammatically; they just don't make sense from a logical standpoint, as they seem to present a concordance where there should be a contrast.)

    this will probably do wonders as far as making the point more clear.

    --

    on a lighter note:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_while_John_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_a_better_effect_on_the_teacher

    shahdevine Really wants to Beat The GMAT! Default Avatar
    Joined
    18 May 2008
    Posted:
    197 messages
    Thanked:
    12 times
    Test Date:
    sept 8
    Target GMAT Score:
    710
    Post Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:46 pm
    mehravikas wrote:
    Though he had had success broadcasting his controversial radio program on highly regulated terrestrial airwaves, Howard Stern opted out of terrestrial broadcasting in favor of the less regulated satellite radio medium.

    a. Though he had had
    b. Though he has had
    c. Even though he had
    d. Having had
    e. Having achieved

    OA: A
    Source: MGMAT Practice Exams
    Doubt: Why do we need had had, what is the difference between using had had and had. Is it past perfect vs simple past?
    had+verb is past perfect and its used to identify order of two past events. in this sentence, hw's success in terrestial broadcasting is in the past as is his opting to do satellite. so we need to order their sequence through the past perfect. "had" by itself is simple past and that would be relevant if hw's opting was an event that had not ended.

    you got this man!

    siddharth rastogi Rising GMAT Star Default Avatar
    Joined
    16 Aug 2009
    Posted:
    66 messages
    Thanked:
    2 times
    Post Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:06 am
    RON,thanks again

    Though he had had success broadcasting his controversial radio program on highly regulated terrestrial airwaves, Howard Stern opted out of terrestrial broadcasting in favor of the less regulated satellite radio medium.

    a. Though he had had
    b. Though he has had
    c. Even though he had
    d. Having had
    e. Having achieved


    RON, though is used to contrast one event say 1 to the other say 2

    But in the above sentence I am not able to get the real contrast.

    If the person hadhad sucess in terrestrial airwaves( 1)
    Why ( THOUGH IS USED)contrast is showed to say that he opted again terrestrial brodcasting ?

    GMAT/MBA Expert

    lunarpower GMAT Instructor
    Joined
    03 Mar 2008
    Posted:
    2975 messages
    Followed by:
    1048 members
    Thanked:
    1729 times
    GMAT Score:
    800
    Most Active Expert Most Responsive Expert Most Thanked Expert
    Post Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:11 am
    siddharth rastogi wrote:
    RON,thanks again

    Though he had had success broadcasting his controversial radio program on highly regulated terrestrial airwaves, Howard Stern opted out of terrestrial broadcasting in favor of the less regulated satellite radio medium.

    a. Though he had had
    b. Though he has had
    c. Even though he had
    d. Having had
    e. Having achieved


    RON, though is used to contrast one event say 1 to the other say 2

    But in the above sentence I am not able to get the real contrast.

    If the person hadhad sucess in terrestrial airwaves( 1)
    Why ( THOUGH IS USED)contrast is showed to say that he opted again terrestrial brodcasting ?
    the second clause says that he "OPTED OUT". this mean that he QUIT terrestrial broadcasting.

    given that he had previously enjoyed success, this is indeed a contrast.

    _________________
    Ron is a Director of Curriculum Development at Manhattan GMAT. He has been teaching various standardized tests for almost 20 years.

    He wears white after Labor Day, gets 55% of his calories from protein, and takes standardized tests for fun.

    Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron o en inglés o en español.

    If you send Ron a private message, please allow 1-2 weeks for a response.

    Learn more about ron

    Free Manhattan GMAT online events - The first class of every online Manhattan GMAT course is free. Classes start every week.
    Goto page
    • 1,
    • 2
    Next

    Best Conversation Starters
    1 varun289 43 topics
    2 greenwich 30 topics
    3 sana.noor 21 topics
    4 guerrero 20 topics
    5 killerdrummer 19 topics
    See More Top Beat The GMAT Members...

    Most Active Experts
    1 image description Brent@GMATPrepNow

    GMAT Prep Now Teacher

    		 202 posts
    2 image description GMATGuruNY

    The Princeton Review Teacher

    		 143 posts
    3 image description Anju@Gurome

    Gurome

    		 134 posts
    4 image description Jim@StratusPrep

    Stratus Prep

    		 86 posts
    5 image description David@VeritasPrep

    Veritas Prep

    		 41 posts
    See More Top Beat The GMAT Experts