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## SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

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lunarpower GMAT Instructor
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Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:43 am
oh, and by the way:
Quote:
Ex

With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees Farenheit, Jupiter's moon Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, its 60 square miles of water ARE thought to be frozen from top to bottom

this would be incorrect. it's a run-on sentence.

the orange part is a complete sentence, and the words after the comma (with your "are") are another complete sentence.

you can't have the construction complete sentence + COMMA + complete sentence. that's called a run-on (comma splice) and is ALWAYS wrong.

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Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:52 pm
Ron,

Thanks for the explanation, but what does "thought" as-is acting as in choice B. Isn't it simple past, so why doesn't it make this sentence run-on.

I do see that "thought" as a verb in B would be an incomplete because thought by whom? I am just not able to understand what it is acting as?

Thanks,

Vineet

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:39 am
vineetbatra wrote:
Ron,

Thanks for the explanation, but what does "thought" as-is acting as in choice B. Isn't it simple past, so why doesn't it make this sentence run-on.

I do see that "thought" as a verb in B would be an incomplete because thought by whom? I am just not able to understand what it is acting as?

Thanks,

Vineet
it's not a past-tense verb; it's actually a PAST PARTICIPLE. in other words, it's in the same class as words such as
dedicated
considered
thrown
taken

the reason why this is a difficult recognition, in this case, is that the past-tense form ("thought"), for this particular verb, looks exactly the same as the past participle form ("thought"). in fact, that's the case for the vast majority of verbs in english, although there are exceptions -- irregular verbs for which the past participle and the past tense look different.
for instance, the last two verbs in the above list are among these irregular verbs:
* "thrown" is exclusively a past participle; the past tense is "threw"
* "taken" is exclusively a past participle; the past tense is "took"

i'll illustrate why this is a correct construction with one of those two participles, since it's easier to see that it's NOT a past-tense verb:
after the earthquake, janice came home to find her house in ruins, its roof severed from the walls and thrown fifty feet horizontally.

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He wears white after Labor Day, gets 55% of his calories from protein, and takes standardized tests for fun.

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:26 am
I will also go with A

B and its
C and has
D and its
E and to have

these are not fit with sentrence

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:46 am
I am on A........wats the OA?

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:09 am
lunarpower wrote:
it's not a past-tense verb; it's actually a PAST PARTICIPLE. in other words, it's in the same class as words such as
dedicated
considered
thrown
taken

[/i]
Thanks again for the reply Ron. This point raises 2 questions in my mind
1. First of all how do we identify whether a particular verb form used is simple past or past participle when it is the same for both (bough, bought, fought fought); other words, how did you know that thought is acting as a Past participle and not simple Past

2. Since it is Past Participle then I will assume that it is acting as a modifier and it is modifying the noun immediately preceding it i.e. water and/or 60 square miles or 60 square miles of water.

Cheers,

Vineet

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Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:55 am
consider as

consider to be

are wrong

C,D and E are out

"and with" in A have no "with" at the begining. A is out

B is right

B is absolute phrase which includes noun and adjective and which show a state simultaneous with action of main clause

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Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:53 am
vineetbatra wrote:
Thanks again for the reply Ron. This point raises 2 questions in my mind
1. First of all how do we identify whether a particular verb form used is simple past or past participle when it is the same for both (bough, bought, fought fought); other words, how did you know that thought is acting as a Past participle and not simple Past
well, i would imagine that there are two ways to do this, the first of which (in my mind) is really the only feasible one:

1, look at tons and tons of examples of correct constructions involving each of these forms, until you can recognize analogous constructions on sight.
this is pretty much the way the human brain is made to absorb language -- by imitation, rather than by analysis. (you are not going to find a child alive who absorbs his first language through the use of systematic analysis. while learning second languages later in life is certainly different, and much harder, then learning one's first language in childhood, all evidence points to the fact that imitative learning is still by far the easiest.)

2, somehow try to cobble together an exhaustive list of every possible use of these forms, try to memorize all of them, and then (probably even harder than those first two steps, as hard as those already are) somehow train yourself to the point where you can recognize any and all of those forms within the distinct time window provided for sentence correction!

i really don't think at the second of these is very reasonable, which pretty much leaves you with the first.

as a hint, one of the best ways you can educate yourself about the proper use of grammatical forms is:
* search them as search terms on the internet
* find grammar sites that contain correct illustrations alongside incorrect ones
* compile a list of those illustrations
* look it over and make sure you know which ones are correct and which ones are incorrect

if you are really dedicated, you can put each individual example -- a healthy selection of both correct and incorrect ones -- onto a flash card, and then, on the back of the flash card, write either CORRECT or INCORRECT and then give a very brief identification of the grammatical structure at hand.
remember, don't go overboard with the identification and/or classification; the whole point is that you primarily develop the ability to RECOGNIZE the forms, without having to name them in order to do so!

Quote:
2. Since it is Past Participle then I will assume that it is acting as a modifier and it is modifying the noun immediately preceding it i.e. water and/or 60 square miles or 60 square miles of water.
yeah, that's how those work -- they modify nouns. unless there are other intervening modifiers, they generally default to the closest noun.

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He wears white after Labor Day, gets 55% of his calories from protein, and takes standardized tests for fun.

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron o en inglés o en español.

If you send Ron a private message, please allow 1-2 weeks for a response.

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Sun May 02, 2010 3:36 am
netcaesar wrote:
I do not know how to solve this SC. Please, help!!!

With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees Farenheit, Jupiter's moon Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, and with 60 square miles of water thought to be frozen from top to bottom

A) Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, and with
B) Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, its
C) Europa has long been considered as far too cold to support life and has
D) Europa, long considered as far too cold to support life, and its
E) Europa, long considered to be far too cold to support life, and to have
The OA B uses its hence according to the pronoun referend ruled .. its should refer to Jupiter because the noun Jupiter is in possesive case. In that case wont its in 60 square miles of water thought to be frozen from top to bottommodify Jupiter rather the Europa. ..Plz Help ..!!

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Sat May 29, 2010 2:26 am
Hi Ron,

I would like to clarify my understanding from your explanation and examples.

lunarpower wrote:
this sort of modifier (COMMA + ABSTRACT NOUN) can be used to refer back to the WHOLE IDEA of the preceding clause.

let's say that scientists discover that X is 60 percent of Y, and that they are shocked by this finding.

then:
recent studies have shown that X is 60 percent of Y, which has shocked many in the scientific community.
incorrect.
this sentence implies that Y itself has shocked many in the scientific community. that's not true.

recent studies have shown that X is 60 percent of Y, a finding that has shocked many in the scientific community.
or
recent studies have shown that X is 60 percent of Y, a statistic that has shocked many in the scientific community.
these are correct.
the abstract noun "finding" or "statistic" may refer to the whole idea of the preceding clause.

I believe that this is an absolute phrase, which contain noun and noun modifier.

lunarpower wrote:
on the other hand, COMMA + CONCRETE NOUN is normally used to refer to the preceding noun (much like "which").

for instance:
james went for dinner and drinks with mr. easton, a consultant from the west end.
here, "a consultant" is a concrete noun. it only describes "mr. easton", not the whole idea of the preceding clause.

I believe that this is an appositive phrase.

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Sat May 29, 2010 12:15 pm
umaa wrote:
netcaesar wrote:
I do not know how to solve this SC. Please, help!!!

With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees Farenheit, Jupiter's moon Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, and with 60 square miles of water thought to be frozen from top to bottom

A) Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, and with
B) Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, its
C) Europa has long been considered as far too cold to support life and has
D) Europa, long considered as far too cold to support life, and its
E) Europa, long considered to be far too cold to support life, and to have
Idiom is consider. So, consider as, consider to be are all wrong.

Eliminate C, D and E.

Hi Umma

Y do we need conjuction IMO B , Its refers to Europa . Usage of " with" in " A" changes the meaning of the sentence what is OA ?

B is worng. A COMMA can't be a conjunction for two clauses.

IMO A.

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Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:30 am
capnx wrote:
netcaesar wrote:
I do not know how to solve this SC. Please, help!!!

With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees Farenheit, Jupiter's moon Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, and with 60 square miles of water though to be frozen from top to bottom

A) Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, and with
B) Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, its
C) Europa has long been considered as far too cold to support life and has
D) Europa, long considered as far too cold to support life, and its
E) Europa, long considered to be far too cold to support life, and to have
please make sure you type the question correctly. One word can make a huge difference:

With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees Farenheit, Jupiter's moon Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, and with 60 square miles of water thought to be frozen from top to bottom.
as you said "a word can make a huge difference", in the official question is though not thought

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Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:08 am
what is OA ?

IMO B

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lunarpower wrote:
duongthang wrote:
"main clause, noun+which clause/adjective"---she is beautiful, a fact I know---

in this pattern, noun phrase is a summary of main clause.
this is indeed a correct pattern, but it only works if the noun in question is an ABSTRACT noun (i.e., not a concrete object, person, etc). such as "activity", "finding", "idea", "notion", "statistic", etc.

this sort of modifier (COMMA + ABSTRACT NOUN) can be used to refer back to the WHOLE IDEA of the preceding clause.

let's say that scientists discover that X is 60 percent of Y, and that they are shocked by this finding.

then:
recent studies have shown that X is 60 percent of Y, which has shocked many in the scientific community.
incorrect.
this sentence implies that Y itself has shocked many in the scientific community. that's not true.

recent studies have shown that X is 60 percent of Y, a finding that has shocked many in the scientific community.
or
recent studies have shown that X is 60 percent of Y, a statistic that has shocked many in the scientific community.
these are correct.
the abstract noun "finding" or "statistic" may refer to the whole idea of the preceding clause.

in fact, that's the whole point of these modifiers. they are fatally awkward in spoken language (i.e., you can NEVER EVER say them out loud), but they do things that more "normal-sounding" modifiers (such as "which") aren't allowed to do.

for 2 problems that use this sort of modifier, see:
* #59 in the purple OG verbal supplement (in which this sort of modifier is present in the NON underlined section)
* #79 in the same source (in which it's present in the correct answer choice)

--

on the other hand, COMMA + CONCRETE NOUN is normally used to refer to the preceding noun (much like "which").

for instance:
james went for dinner and drinks with mr. easton, a consultant from the west end.
here, "a consultant" is a concrete noun. it only describes "mr. easton", not the whole idea of the preceding clause.

james went for dinner and drinks with mr. easton, an outing that was much more enjoyable than working all day.
here, "an outing" is abstract. it describes the whole previous clause (going for dinner and drinks).
RON, I WISH YOU EXPLAIN MORE. THANK A LOT.

in B, the correct answer, "its...." refer to a specific noun which possibly is far from this phrase, but, "its...." is still in MODIFYING RELATION with main clause. So, I want to summarize as following, pls, confirm correctness.

COMMA ABSTRACT NOUN MODIFIES MAIN CLAUSE

COMMA CONCRETE NOUN CAN
-MODIFY ONLY A NOUN IN MAIN CLAUSE , or
-REFER TO A NOUN IN MAIN CLAUSE BUT STILL MODIFY MAIN CLAUSE.

Are those correct", pls, confirm Ron, thank for your help

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Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:20 am
With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees Farenheit, Jupiter's moon Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, and with 60 square miles of water thought to be frozen from top to bottom

A) Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, and with
B) Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, its
C) Europa has long been considered as far too cold to support life and has
D) Europa, long considered as far too cold to support life, and its
E) Europa, long considered to be far too cold to support life, and to have

It comes down to A and B. Somehow the option A does not complete the sentence or the clause.

B is not a good sentence but somehow the best out of all the 5 options being given...

Hence B. A bit difficult to understand...

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