Geo DS

This topic has expert replies
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:52 pm
Thanked: 2 times

Geo DS

by vinviper1 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:32 am
What is the volume of cube A?

The surface area of cube A is 18 cm squared.
The furthest distance between two points on the surface of cube A is 3 cm.
Statement (1) ALONE is sufficient, but statement (2) alone is not sufficient
Statement (2) ALONE is sufficient, but statement (1) alone is not sufficient
BOTH statements TOGETHER are sufficient, but NEITHER statement ALONE is sufficient
EACH statement ALONE is sufficient
Statements (1) and (2) TOGETHER are NOT sufficient

D
Source: — Data Sufficiency |

User avatar
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:29 am
Location: Hyderabad, India
Thanked: 36 times
Followed by:2 members
GMAT Score:770

by simplyjat » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:46 am
Volume of cube is s*s*s. Surface Area of cube = 6*s*s. where s is the side of the cube. The furthest points on the cube are the points on diagonals of a single face = S*sqrt(2). Both statements alone are sufficient to answer the question.

But there is a problem. if you take the first statement, S = sqrt(3) and if you take second statement S = 3/sqrt(2)... both do not match. Where did you get the question, official GMAT DS questions will result in the same answer through both statements....
simplyjat

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3225
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:40 pm
Location: Toronto
Thanked: 1710 times
Followed by:614 members
GMAT Score:800

by Stuart@KaplanGMAT » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:44 am
simplyjat wrote:Volume of cube is s*s*s. Surface Area of cube = 6*s*s. where s is the side of the cube. The furthest points on the cube are the points on diagonals of a single face = S*sqrt(2). Both statements alone are sufficient to answer the question.

But there is a problem. if you take the first statement, S = sqrt(3) and if you take second statement S = 3/sqrt(2)... both do not match. Where did you get the question, official GMAT DS questions will result in the same answer through both statements....
Excellent analysis (including the part about the question not making sense).

One additional point: cubes, like squares and circles (and equilateral triangles), really only have 1 measurement (side for cubes and squares, radius for circles). For these shapes, if you have ANY concrete measurement, you can figure out everything about them.

So, ignoring the "this question would never appear as written" issue, we see that each statement gives us a measurement of the cube, so each one will be sufficient on its own.

Remember, DS isn't about actually getting the answer, DS is about determining if it's possible to get the answer.
Image

Stuart Kovinsky | Kaplan GMAT Faculty | Toronto

Kaplan Exclusive: The Official Test Day Experience | Ready to Take a Free Practice Test? | Kaplan/Beat the GMAT Member Discount
BTG100 for $100 off a full course

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:03 am
whoa whoa
wait
hold on
Stuart Kovinsky wrote: Excellent analysis (including the part about the question not making sense).
most of the analysis is good, but the treatment of statement (2) is fatally flawed. see below.

Stuart Kovinsky wrote:One additional point: cubes, like squares and circles (and equilateral triangles), really only have 1 measurement (side for cubes and squares, radius for circles). For these shapes, if you have ANY concrete measurement, you can figure out everything about them.
*** excellent point, and, indeed, this is all you need to solve the problem.
Stuart Kovinsky wrote:So, ignoring the "this question would never appear as written" issue,
and ignore it we should, because the 'issue' is nonexistent. see below for details.
Stuart Kovinsky wrote: we see that each statement gives us a measurement of the cube, so each one will be sufficient on its own.
yes.
Stuart Kovinsky wrote:Remember, DS isn't about actually getting the answer, DS is about determining if it's possible to get the answer.
yes again.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
simplyjat wrote:Volume of cube is s*s*s. Surface Area of cube = 6*s*s. where s is the side of the cube.
right.
so this means s^2 = 18 / 6 = 3, so side length = √3.
so far so good.

here's where things take a turn southward:
simplyjat wrote: The furthest points on the cube are the points on diagonals of a single face = S*sqrt(2).
nope.

the longest such distance is between the two points at opposite corners of the cube - i.e., the points at either end of a main diagonal of the cube. that distance is actually (side)*√3, so
side*√3 = 3
side = √3
and note that this is perfectly consistent with the first statement.

nb: if you drew the distance between these two points, the distance would go diagonally through the cube itself; in other words, the distance segment itself is not on the surface of the cube. but make sure you notice that this does not in any way violate the question, which stipulates only that the points must be on the surface of the cube.
simplyjat wrote:But there is a problem. if you take the first statement, S = sqrt(3) and if you take second statement S = 3/sqrt(2)... both do not match. Where did you get the question, official GMAT DS questions will result in the same answer through both statements....
both values are side = √3, so there's no problem.


------


here are the two most important things you should learn from this topic:
(1) stuart's point above about the unidimensionality of cubes, etc. (see above, marked 'excellent point' with 3 asterisks)
(2) if you want 'longest distance', 'farthest apart', etc., with a cube, it's a fairly safe bet that they're talking about the main diagonal.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

User avatar
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:29 am
Location: Hyderabad, India
Thanked: 36 times
Followed by:2 members
GMAT Score:770

by simplyjat » Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:44 am
As I already mentioned, the question is simply wrong... still you can safely answer D...

Now lets analyze the second option...

The furthest distance between two points on the surface of cube A is 3 cm

Now as we are dealing with 3D geometry, I expect the examiner, who wrote the question, to be aware of what is surface in geometry and what is a boundary of a surface.

A cube is specially an intersection of six different surfaces. A circle is one complete surface, a cone consists of two different surfaces, a cylinder consists of three different surfaces.

To call six different surfaces of a cube a single surface, is to call a square a single line. A child who does not know the intricacies of 2D geometry will not be able to different between arc and parabola (both are curved lines) , but that is not the case with the person who has taken a course in 2D geometry.

If I see such a question in GMAT, and GMAC says that both the answers should be same, I will definitely sue GMAC because the person who wrote the question is seriously lacking any knowledge of 3D geometry.
simplyjat

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:50 am
simplyjat wrote:As I already mentioned, the question is simply wrong... still you can safely answer D...

The furthest distance between two points on the surface of cube A is 3 cm

If I see such a question in GMAT, and GMAC says that both the answers should be same, I will definitely sue GMAC because the person who wrote the question is seriously lacking any knowledge of 3D geometry.
the question is not wrong; the answers are consistent. read my post, above.

you are looking for
the longest distance
between
two points on the surface of the cube.

this means you are restricted to points that are on the surface of the cube, but you want to pick those points as far apart as possible. but here's the key: if you draw a line between the points, that line does not have to be on the surface - and that's why you want the opposite corners / main diagonal.

--

analogy:
if i told you to find the greatest distance between two points on the surface of a sphere, which two points would you pick? (highlight to see)

[spoiler]you'd pick two points at opposite ends of a diameter.
note, again, that the distance segment between these 2 points is not on the surface of the sphere - that's actually impossible, because the sphere is curved - but, as in the cube, the points themselves are on the sphere, and that's all that matters.[/spoiler]
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

User avatar
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:29 am
Location: Hyderabad, India
Thanked: 36 times
Followed by:2 members
GMAT Score:770

by simplyjat » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:12 am
Ron
The whole point is the reference of the surface...

When you say surface of sphere, it is unambiguous as there is only one surface in a sphere. The problem comes when the object is having more than one surfaces, like a cone or a cylinder.

The opposite of ends of the main diagonal are not on the same surface at all. Each of them lies on three different surfaces with no common surface.

Cube has 6 surfaces, all surfaces are identical but distinct. When you are asked about farthest points on a surface, you can not consider more than one surface. You have to stick to a single surface, it means that you have to stick to a single face of the cube.
simplyjat

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:39 am
simplyjat wrote:Ron
The whole point is the reference of the surface...

When you say surface of sphere, it is unambiguous as there is only one surface in a sphere. The problem comes when the object is having more than one surfaces, like a cone or a cylinder.

The opposite of ends of the main diagonal are not on the same surface at all. Each of them lies on three different surfaces with no common surface.

Cube has 6 surfaces, all surfaces are identical but distinct. When you are asked about farthest points on a surface, you can not consider more than one surface. You have to stick to a single surface, it means that you have to stick to a single face of the cube.
no, simplyjat, that's not the way mathematicians use the term 'surface'. i understand exactly what you are saying - and i understand exactly what you are going to say if you continue to argue the issue - but, unfortunately, you are incorrect this time.

i'm not saying that your statements are illogical, because they aren't. what i am saying is that the entire mathematical community, including the gmat writers, happens to use the term 'surface' in the way i have indicated - a cube has a surface, which consists of six square faces - and not in the way you have indicated. you may not like that definition, but, just as with SC idioms, you must accept it as the standard.

if you still don't believe me, type the following search into google:
"the surface of a cube"
(including the quote marks)
there are over ten thousand hits. read through as many as you like: i guarantee you that every single one of them will use 'surface' in exactly the same way in which the gmat uses it.

--

i will leave you, and everyone else who reads this thread, with the following advice:
if your answer differs from the official answer, then look for YOUR mistake, not theirs.
i am not above this advice myself, jat; i make mistakes in reasoning all the time. true story.
but, since you're playing their game, you must learn their rules and their definitions; ignore or contest them at your own peril.

good night, and good luck.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

User avatar
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:29 am
Location: Hyderabad, India
Thanked: 36 times
Followed by:2 members
GMAT Score:770

by simplyjat » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:10 am
lunarpower wrote:if your answer differs from the official answer, then look for YOUR mistake, not theirs.
I am taking this too far, but I do not have any other choice.

Lets get the things straight first.
1) This is not an official question with explanation.
3) Every possible explanation yields D as the answer
2) English and Maths can never be compared.

Your trust in google is profound. But just for the sake of knowledge, you should have looked up wikipedia once for the term surface. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface. Here is a small snippet
In mathematics, specifically in topology, a surface is a two-dimensional manifold. The most familiar examples are those that arise as the boundaries of solid objects in ordinary three-dimensional Euclidean space, E³. On the other hand, there are also more exotic surfaces, that are so "contorted" that they cannot be embedded in three-dimensional space at all.
We are all mortals, trying to achieve perfection, and no one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. As a definite example see https://www.beatthegmat.com/gmat-prep-al ... 10135.html. The problem is not that people make mistakes. The problem is that people do not want to accept the mistakes...
simplyjat

Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:52 pm
Thanked: 8 times

by luvaduva » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:14 am
hehe, I made a mistake on that problem as it was written in that post. The sad thing is that it takes less than a minute to solve the correct problem and I spent a good hour thinking about the incorrect one.

I showed it to someone much smarter than me and in like 30 seconds after seeing it for the first time he told me that there was something flawed in it.

It is healthy to be humbled now and then.

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 2228
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:28 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada
Thanked: 639 times
Followed by:694 members
GMAT Score:780

by Stacey Koprince » Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:30 pm
Oh, yeah, we ALL make mistakes from time to time! :)

But we do know that this test uses the classical interpretation of terms, which is that a cube has 6 faces, and those faces are referred to collectively as the surface of the shape.

It might help to think of surface area. Do we calculate the "surface area" of a 2-d shape? No, we only use it for 3-d shapes. When we calculate surface area of, say, a cube, are we talking about just one of the six identical faces? No, we're talking about all 6 faces. The surface = the sum of the individual faces.

So - not talking about this question b/c someone said this isn't an OG question - but, in general, it would not be wrong to see an OG or other official question use the term surface in this way.

Did anybody ever cite a source for this question, by the way?
Please note: I do not use the Private Messaging system! I will not see any PMs that you send to me!!

Stacey Koprince
GMAT Instructor
Director of Online Community
Manhattan GMAT

Contributor to Beat The GMAT!

Learn more about me