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Hi there,

I'm a corporate lawyer based in India. I did law from one of the top three law school in the country (Campus Law Centre, University of Delhi) where less than 4% of the applicants make in. Prior to that I've done Graduation in English from the same university.

I'm not sure how my undergrad scores will be interpreted by HBS if I were to apply there. In India, scores are calculated out of 100, and come in percentages.

In Bachelor of Arts degree I received 52% where the highest was in the low 60s.

In law I got 50.56% where the highest was again in the low 60s.

Please advise if this score is acceptable to HBS.

I had been associated with 2 leading newspapers of India one each during Bachelor of Arts and during law school and had to balance my academics and my work. Is there any chance that HBS would look at my undergrad as more than just a sum of my scores?

Any advise would be very useful to me.

Thanks

Dear Turnpike,

Thanks for your post!

Here are my thoughts on your situation:

1) On the surface a 52% in ugrad and a 50.56% in law school do not look great - especially when applying to a school like HBS where the average admitted student tends to come in with something closer to a 90%. Of course, HBS (and all the top b-schools) know that the grading system in India is very different, and that just breaking into the 70% range can be a sign of stellar performance, so I wouldn't rule yourself out of the game.

2) I must say that I am surprised to hear that the 'topper' in both of your programs did not break out of the low-60% range. While I know that the education system in Indian can be tough in terms of grades, there are usually some students who manage to secure something in the 70s or even the rare 80% candidate. Keep in mind that HBS will be used to seeing some of those 70-80% types out of the IITs. As such, you will ideally need to make it clear that the programs you attended did not award anything above the low 60's.

3) Remember that there are other metrics that can be used beyond just GPA. For example, class ranking. Were you given a rank? If so, were you in the top 10-15% of your classes? This sort of supporting evidence can really help to address a lower GPA.

4) Finally, the real benchmarking tool that HBS has at their disposal is the GMAT. Since all candidates across the globe take the exam, this is a great way to see how a 52% ugrad from a bachelor of arts program in India stacks up against a 69% ugrad from one of the IITs - and in turn how both of those candidates compare to the US-based Yale graduate who earned a 3.6 GPA, etc.

5) If you worked extensively on the newspapers while in school, you may want to include that in your file, as a way to explain your marks and showcase your early work experience, etc.

At the end of the day, I must admit I am a bit puzzled by your statements here. On the one hand you seem to be stating that you did perfectly fine in school, but that the schools you attended just didn't give out high grades (the top ranking students were in the low 60% range). Then, later in your post, you seem to suggest that you didn't perform as well as you could have due to your involvement with the newspapers... If you have a class rank of some kind, that would clearly help me shed light on where things stand. And again, securing a 730+ on the GMAT would certainly help you make a stronger argument either way.

Best of luck,

Graham

Thanks Graham for a very quick and articulate response.

First of all, the 70% 80% that you hear of students getting in India are mostly NOT from Delhi University. A lot of other universities give out that kind of percentages (None of them top-rung). Many universities in the US are aware of this. So a 70% from, say, Indraprastha (IP) University in Delhi would be treated as a 55% from Delhi University. I don't know how much information HBS maintains on this discrepancy.

Secondly, grading in India is done in what is called 'divisions' - 60% and above is first division, 50% and above is second division, the rest is third division and below 35% is fail. So I come in the second division, which is basically the average category. (Though for students in universities like the IP University, most students would come under the first division category because of their relatively high score dispersal. Institutions like Harvard Law School and Universities like Oxbridge know of this)

Thirdly, since I fall into the average category I was thinking of pointing to the work experience and involvement I've had during BA and LLB to point out that my undergrad experience is not all about scores.

Finally, in India you will get far greater scores if you are in a science background than if you are in an arts background. Actually you'll get even more if you are in a commerce background. (And I'm talking of the system right from school onwards. The cut off scores of colleges are displayed under 3 heads - one for students of science stream, the other for commerce and the final for arts. And they vary wildly.) The best student in science during graduation and the best student in arts/ social sciences will have a 20 percentage point difference. So my scores cannot be compared to that of an engineer because we are from two entirely different streams. It's very wacky and weird and I wonder if HBS knows of it or just looks at the marks and takes people in. (Which may explain the number of Indian engineers in the fray for HBS.)

At the end of the day, I don't know how much HBS is aware of the Indian system.

I hope I've made the situation a little clearer. I'm sure a lot of people would love to have your comment on this; and that includes me.

Dear Turnpike,

Thanks for providing further detail and shedding additional light on your situation. I've offered my additional thoughts/response below:

First of all, the 70% 80% that you hear of students getting in India are mostly NOT from Delhi University. A lot of other universities give out that kind of percentages (None of them top-rung). Many universities in the US are aware of this. So a 70% from, say, Indraprastha (IP) University in Delhi would be treated as a 55% from Delhi University. I don't know how much information HBS maintains on this discrepancy.
>>The truth of the matter is that you can't rely on the fact that your HBS admissions reader will be 100% up to speed on the nuances of every Indian university. As I stated before, they will all have a rough sense of the fact that high grades (e.g. 80%+) are hard to come by at leading Indian schools, but the differences between grading policies at Delhi University and the IITs, for example, may be lost on your admissions reader.

>>As a former admissions officer from Wharton, I can honestly say that it's hard for the readers to keep up with every school across dozens of countries - and you need to remember that there is high turnover in the admissions office too, which means that new team members are frequently added to the mix and still getting up to speed.

>>In short, from an admissions strategy standpoint, I would NOT assume that the adcom knows that Delhi is especially difficult. They may know that it's a great program, etc, but they likely won't differentiate between the IITs' grading policy and Delhi's.

Secondly, grading in India is done in what is called 'divisions' - 60% and above is first division, 50% and above is second division, the rest is third division and below 35% is fail. So I come in the second division, which is basically the average category. (Though for students in universities like the IP University, most students would come under the first division category because of their relatively high score dispersal. Institutions like Harvard Law School and Universities like Oxbridge know of this)
>>Yes, this system should be familiar to your admissions readers (as it somewhat parallels the system in use in the UK with first class honors, second class honors, etc). Having said that, I don't think that your readers in the MBA admissions world will necessarily know what percentage of students in your class made 'first division' nor how difficult that might be. As such, the onus will be on you to offer some sort of indication. The key question I have for you is how many people were in your class and how many of them made first division? This is likely something we'd need to discuss at length in order to identify the best strategy for you.

Thirdly, since I fall into the average category I was thinking of pointing to the work experience and involvement I've had during BA and LLB to point out that my undergrad experience is not all about scores.
>>Yes, this could make sense. Of course, you have to be a bit careful about "having it both ways" - meaning, your strategy could backfire if on the one hand you say that the program was very harsh in terms of grading (e.g that your marks may be low, but they are actually very high for the program) and then on the other hand you point to the fact that your grades were impacted by your work and XC involvement. I think you can effectively make these points, but you will need to tread carefully.

Finally, in India you will get far greater scores if you are in a science background than if you are in an arts background. Actually you'll get even more if you are in a commerce background. (And I'm talking of the system right from school onwards. The cut off scores of colleges are displayed under 3 heads - one for students of science stream, the other for commerce and the final for arts. And they vary wildly.) The best student in science during graduation and the best student in arts/ social sciences will have a 20 percentage point difference. So my scores cannot be compared to that of an engineer because we are from two entirely different streams. It's very wacky and weird and I wonder if HBS knows of it or just looks at the marks and takes people in. (Which may explain the number of Indian engineers in the fray for HBS.)
>>While I've come to see a bit of this discrepancy after working for 7+ years with Indian clients via Clear Admit, I must say that it was never apparent to me as an admissions officer at Wharton and I don't suspect it's common knowledge among otehr US adcoms either. The truth is that the Indian MBA applicant pool for US schools is so heavily dominated by engineers (75%) and commerce ugrads (15%), that the b-schools simply don't see that many candidates from non-business, non-engineering backgrounds (less than 10%).

At the end of the day, I don't know how much HBS is aware of the Indian system.
>>I wouldn't count on their knowing it to the depth that you've explained it in your two posts here. Also, remember that they are going to spend about 20 mins reading your entire application. As such, you will need to quickly, and clearly convey this matter without giving the appearance of making excuses, etc. This is why, at the end of the day, your best remedy to the situation is to secure a VERY high GMAT result. If you score 730+, I suspect that the adcom will be much more inclined to hear you out when it comes to your grades. If you check in with a 680, they will be more likely to assume that your ugrad performance was actually a fairly accurate measure of your ability, etc.

I hope I've made the situation a little clearer. I'm sure a lot of people would love to have your comment on this; and that includes me.[/quote]
>>Yes, thanks for adding more detail - I'm sure this was very helpful to all the readers of the forum. Please let me know if you have any further questions or would like to set up an initial session with Clear Admit. While we've focused almost ecxclusively on your grades in this discussion, there are some aspects of your legal background that could really work to your favor in the applicant pool. Feel free to send along your resume/CV ([email protected]) if you'd like to speak with one of our counselors.

Best of luck,

Graham

Graham,

I cannot thank you enough for your insights. Honestly speaking, I'm pretty certain that almost everything is against me making it into HBS. But I'm enjoying the rush that comes with trying to attempt the impossible.

As far as my grades are concerned, I have a secret wish that HBS will try get some inputs from their neighbour (HLS) who would most certainly have a very clear idea of my law school considering the number of students who get accepted there for LLM from it.

I am not going to give an excuse as far as my grades are concerned. I'll just make sure I've trumpeted my work experience at undergrad prominently in my resume

And yes: GMAT. I'm still at least 3 months away from giving it. So, I haven't quite passed the first barbed wire yet.

But thank you once again for your advise.

Graham,

I cannot thank you enough for your insights. Honestly speaking, I'm pretty certain that almost everything is against me making it into HBS. But I'm enjoying the rush that comes with trying to attempt the impossible.

As far as my grades are concerned, I secretly hope that HBS will try get some inputs from their neighbour (HLS) who would most certainly have a very clear idea of my law school considering the number of students who get accepted there for LLM from it.

I am not going to give an excuse as far as my grades are concerned. I'll just make sure I've trumpeted my work experience at undergrad prominently in my resume

And yes: GMAT. I'm still at least 3 months away from giving it. So, I haven't quite passed the first barbed wire yet.

But thank you once again for your advise.