Welcome! Check out our free B-School Guides to learn how you compare with other applicants.

Bold face question: delta products _fossil fuel consumption

tagged by:

This topic has 8 expert replies and 18 member replies
Goto page
raghavakumar85 Rising GMAT Star
Joined
30 Sep 2008
Posted:
58 messages
Thanked:
7 times
Test Date:
Gonna Retake again!!
Target GMAT Score:
680
GMAT Score:
630
Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:59 am
Okay..I am clear now.

Thanks

Need free GMAT or MBA advice from an expert? Register for Beat The GMAT now and post your question in these forums!
heshamelaziry GMAT Destroyer!
Joined
26 Aug 2009
Posted:
869 messages
Followed by:
3 members
Thanked:
9 times
Target GMAT Score:
600
Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:56 pm
Testluv wrote:
raghavakumar85 wrote:
Testluv wrote:
raghavakumar85 wrote:
IMO B (may be after i saw the answer )

Observe the words carefully. "The answer is yes, since............" Doesn't it mean that it is the content of the conclusion?

Also the THE ANSWER IS YES is just an answer for a question unstated in the argument, but not the conclusion IMO.
If you think the second bold statement is the conclusion, then what do you think is the evidence that supports it?

Note that E was reported as the OA by the original poster. Typos (even in the OG) have been known to happen. Also, mjjjking's explanation above is very nice.

The correct answer is clearly E. I would be willing to bet a lot of money on it.
Well, I can't bet on it . But, I noted your point.

Suppose in an argument it is stated that " Because it is X, it is Y" where X is evidence and Y is conclusion.

Same statement when re-structured can be stated as " It is Y because it is X" where again X is evidence and Y is conclusion.

Am i right?
Hi Raghava,

not quite. All people living in Toronto are living in Canada. That is to say, because they live in Toronto, they necessarily live in Canada.

Does that mean that all people who live in Canada live in Toronto?

What you are actually talking about in the above is conditional statements (if-then statements).

if x then y does NOT establish that if y then x.
if x then y does establish that if no y, then no x.

At any rate, this does not get tested on the GMAT.

I assume you are asking in attempt to assert that the last sentence's being the conclusion can theoretically be supported by the ideas that preceded it?

The word "since" will ALWAYS signal evidence and not conclusion. (Just as it does in everyday speech.)

And the "content of the conclusion" must be interpreted as "the conclusion." If it were to be interepreted as something else, the question would lose its objectivity, and would be ambiguous. GMAT goes through great pains to remove ambiguity and to ensure that there is only one logically supportable and correct interpretation of every phrase used. (That, in fact, is the main reason the test costs so much to take).
I saw one question in MGMAT that tests this priciple

GMAT/MBA Expert

Testluv GMAT Instructor
Joined
19 Oct 2009
Posted:
1302 messages
Followed by:
127 members
Thanked:
478 times
GMAT Score:
800
Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:05 pm
heshamelaziry wrote:
Testluv wrote:
raghavakumar85 wrote:
Testluv wrote:
raghavakumar85 wrote:
IMO B (may be after i saw the answer )

Observe the words carefully. "The answer is yes, since............" Doesn't it mean that it is the content of the conclusion?

Also the THE ANSWER IS YES is just an answer for a question unstated in the argument, but not the conclusion IMO.
If you think the second bold statement is the conclusion, then what do you think is the evidence that supports it?

Note that E was reported as the OA by the original poster. Typos (even in the OG) have been known to happen. Also, mjjjking's explanation above is very nice.

The correct answer is clearly E. I would be willing to bet a lot of money on it.
Well, I can't bet on it . But, I noted your point.

Suppose in an argument it is stated that " Because it is X, it is Y" where X is evidence and Y is conclusion.

Same statement when re-structured can be stated as " It is Y because it is X" where again X is evidence and Y is conclusion.

Am i right?
Hi Raghava,

not quite. All people living in Toronto are living in Canada. That is to say, because they live in Toronto, they necessarily live in Canada.

Does that mean that all people who live in Canada live in Toronto?

What you are actually talking about in the above is conditional statements (if-then statements).

if x then y does NOT establish that if y then x.
if x then y does establish that if no y, then no x.

At any rate, this does not get tested on the GMAT.

I assume you are asking in attempt to assert that the last sentence's being the conclusion can theoretically be supported by the ideas that preceded it?

The word "since" will ALWAYS signal evidence and not conclusion. (Just as it does in everyday speech.)

And the "content of the conclusion" must be interpreted as "the conclusion." If it were to be interepreted as something else, the question would lose its objectivity, and would be ambiguous. GMAT goes through great pains to remove ambiguity and to ensure that there is only one logically supportable and correct interpretation of every phrase used. (That, in fact, is the main reason the test costs so much to take).
I saw one question in MGMAT that tests this priciple
Yes, I have seen some OG questions testing the distinction between sufficiency and necessity. They are not common but they do exist. In fact, the tiger question posted on this forum a few days ago was testing this concept.

That said, the OG explicitly states in the OG that formal logic conventions are not tested. For example, a right answer to an inference question will never be the contrapositive of a conditional statement in the passage, etc.

_________________
Kaplan Teacher in Toronto

Free GMAT Practice Test under Proctored Conditions! - Find a practice test near you or live and online in Kaplan's Classroom Anywhere environment. Register today!

GMAT/MBA Expert

Testluv GMAT Instructor
Joined
19 Oct 2009
Posted:
1302 messages
Followed by:
127 members
Thanked:
478 times
GMAT Score:
800
Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:55 pm
raghavakumar85 wrote:
Testluv wrote:
raghavakumar85 wrote:
IMO B (may be after i saw the answer )

Observe the words carefully. "The answer is yes, since............" Doesn't it mean that it is the content of the conclusion?

Also the THE ANSWER IS YES is just an answer for a question unstated in the argument, but not the conclusion IMO.
If you think the second bold statement is the conclusion, then what do you think is the evidence that supports it?

Note that E was reported as the OA by the original poster. Typos (even in the OG) have been known to happen. Also, mjjjking's explanation above is very nice.

The correct answer is clearly E. I would be willing to bet a lot of money on it.
Well, I can't bet on it . But, I noted your point.

Suppose in an argument it is stated that " Because it is X, it is Y" where X is evidence and Y is conclusion.

Same statement when re-structured can be stated as " It is Y because it is X" where again X is evidence and Y is conclusion.

Am i right?
Yes, actually this is correct. The first time I had read this I thought Raghava was reversing causation...(because that is exactly what one would have to do in order to think that the second bold statement of this passage was conclusion).

Anyways, to be clear, all of the following are, of course, equivalent:

Since X, Y
Y, since X
X therefore Y
Y because of X
Because of X, Y
Y due to X
X led to Y
X responsible for Y
etc

_________________
Kaplan Teacher in Toronto

Free GMAT Practice Test under Proctored Conditions! - Find a practice test near you or live and online in Kaplan's Classroom Anywhere environment. Register today!
raghavakumar85 Rising GMAT Star
Joined
30 Sep 2008
Posted:
58 messages
Thanked:
7 times
Test Date:
Gonna Retake again!!
Target GMAT Score:
680
GMAT Score:
630
Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:21 pm
Ok.. Thank you! I was only half satisfied with your response yesterday. The causation does not change just because we are changing the sentence structure. If I had said "It is X, because it is Y" as " Because it is X, it is Y" then the meaning and the causation of sentence would have changed.

bikash123 Just gettin' started!
Joined
06 Jun 2010
Posted:
10 messages
Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:52 pm
the question is from OG 12 and the answer is B

GMAT/MBA Expert

Testluv GMAT Instructor
Joined
19 Oct 2009
Posted:
1302 messages
Followed by:
127 members
Thanked:
478 times
GMAT Score:
800
Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:27 pm
bikash123 wrote:
the question is from OG 12 and the answer is B
The question in OG12 is a different version. Some entity took the text of the OG question, emboldened different statements, and asked a different question. (This would be grounds for copyright infringement!)

_________________
Kaplan Teacher in Toronto

Free GMAT Practice Test under Proctored Conditions! - Find a practice test near you or live and online in Kaplan's Classroom Anywhere environment. Register today!
andspeed Just gettin' started!
Joined
30 May 2010
Posted:
1 messages
Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:30 pm
Testluv wrote:
raghavakumar85 wrote:
IMO B (may be after i saw the answer )

Observe the words carefully. "The answer is yes, since............" Doesn't it mean that it is the content of the conclusion?

Also the THE ANSWER IS YES is just an answer for a question unstated in the argument, but not the conclusion IMO.
If you think the second bold statement is the conclusion, then what do you think is the evidence that supports it?

Note that E was reported as the OA by the original poster. Typos (even in the OG) have been known to happen. Also, mjjjking's explanation above is very nice.

The correct answer is clearly E. I would be willing to bet a lot of money on it.
The correct answer for this question is E - as identified by most people on this post.

In this question the second boldface is " the amount... held constant" whereas in the OG 12 guide the second boldface is the statement "for a given level of output Delta’s operation now causes less fossil fuel to be consumed than it did formerly" , in which case the answer is rightly B

Cheers,
Andspeed

darwin Just gettin' started!
Joined
22 Nov 2011
Posted:
10 messages
Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:02 pm
In OG, the answer is B). And the explanation it gave regarding choice E) is

"The second boldfaced portion is not offered as support for the conclusion; if it were offered as such support, the argument would be guilty of circular reasoning, since the second portion states exactly what the argument concludes"

I tend to agree with this explanation. Notice that The 2nd part ( i.e. the boldface ) is NOT the question it is posing. It is just the statement that Delta is consuming less fossil fuel than it did before, which is the conclusion itself.

I agree that the wording is confusing. Regardless, the takeaway for me is that in answering the boldfaced questions, one needs to be careful in picking what the conclusion is first.

amit.trivedi@ymail.com GMAT Destroyer!
Joined
09 Nov 2010
Posted:
934 messages
Followed by:
14 members
Thanked:
60 times
Test Date:
N.A
Target GMAT Score:
750
Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:55 am
The first bold faced part plays the role of an introductory premise and hence is just a premise.

The second bold faced part plays the role of the Most Important Premise in identifying or proving the Conclusion...

Hope this helped!!!

_________________
IT IS TIME TO BEAT THE GMAT

LEARNING, APPLICATION AND TIMING IS THE FACT OF GMAT AND LIFE AS WELL... KEEP PLAYING!!!

Whenever you feel that my post really helped you to learn something new, please press on the 'THANK' button.

mvamsee Just gettin' started!
Joined
01 Jan 2011
Posted:
3 messages
Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:46 pm
HI Everyone,

Sorry for starting an old tread, but the OA is infact B not E. This is a OG 12th Edition CR question # 97.

What is the disconnect?

B does makes sense. Second bold face is infact not the conclusion but is identifying the conclusion. It is not really supporting anything.

sachindia Really wants to Beat The GMAT!
Joined
22 Jun 2012
Posted:
258 messages
Followed by:
3 members
Thanked:
6 times
GMAT Score:
640
Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:36 pm
lunarpower wrote:
you can do most boldface questions with the following 3-point procedure:

1) FIND THE CONCLUSION OF THE PASSAGE IN SIMPLE TERMS

in this case, the conclusion is "yes, delta's operations now use less fossil fuel."

2) JUDGE WHETHER THE BOLDFACE PARTS CHALLENGE, SUPPORT, OR ACTUALLY ARE THE CONCLUSION

no need to be more subtle than this, at least at first.
in this case, both boldface parts are PRO-conclusion. neither one of them actually IS the conclusion.

3) SELECT THE APPROPRIATE ANSWER CHOICE

(a) is wrong because it says boldface #1 is the conclusion.
(b) is wrong because it says boldface #2 is the conclusion.
in (c) both parts are wrong; #1 isn't anti-conclusion, and #2 isn't the conclusion.
in (d) both parts are wrong; neither #1 nor #2 is anti-conclusion.
(e) correctly points out that both #1 and #2 are pro-conclusion, but that neither is the actual conclusion.
Sir Ron,
How is the first BF supporting the conclusion.. It is just a premise..

_________________
Regards,
Sach

Best Conversation Starters

1 vipulgoyal 32 topics
2 hemant_rajput 23 topics
3 guerrero 18 topics
4 abhirup1711 17 topics
5 sana.noor 16 topics
See More Top Beat The GMAT Members...

Most Active Experts

1 Brent@GMATPrepNow

GMAT Prep Now Teacher

211 posts
2 GMATGuruNY

The Princeton Review Teacher

137 posts
3 Jim@StratusPrep

Stratus Prep

60 posts